Canon EOS 7D

[ae86trueno]

I think you misunderstand me. What I am saying is that the EOS 7D has no dedicated high quality L class lenses as of today. The EF-S 7-12mm is not listed and even if it is listed is still not a dedicated L lens but a lens of less stellar performance than L lenses. It is like having a Mercedes S320 with an old Austin engine of the 1960s, leaving you with the more expensive ill-fitting S600 engine as an option. It is not horses for courses. Canon should do what they say and that is to come out with L lenses for the 7D format instead of having a half-baked quality product. It is like replacing a jockey with one that is twice as fat and twice as fat.

ah now I understand what you mean. yes currently there is no dedicated L for crop. there is no EF-S L form. But even that, some of the EF-S has very high IQ and can be compared to the L lens IQ. Take example 10-22 and 17-55 lens. especially the 17-55 IQ can be compared to L lenses. the only missing part is it does not have the same alloy lens body and no weather sealing.

[ae86trueno]

I'd like to test this lens

hahahaha thats what I thought too when I replied I'm sure its typo but surely if it exist I would want to try one

[ctjcad]

...IMHO, they got pushed by other maker esp Nikon. This 7D itself seem directly to compete with the Nikon's Dxxx line.

..don't know if anyone else read this, but i check out this (rumor) news.
Now, this sounds more like the "killer" camera!!..
Apparently, yes, prior to the release of this 7D line, Canon realized their 50D line wasn't selling too well, thus they came out with this new 7D line. Also, I don't know if they were talking abt this new Canon 7D or will the new 60D be even better than the 7D??
And if the supposed new 60D model comes out with the same tech as the 1D+5D, i wonder how much will they sell it for?? $2000??..

http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/07/c...d7d-aps-h-cr1/

Canon EOS 60D/7D – APS-H? [CR1]
July 13th, 2009 Posted in Canon 60D

New Info
Canon has apparently been humbled by the lack sales with the 50D. The 40D was a fantastic selling camera for Canon.

The motivation for the next incarnation is to directly attack the success of Nikon’s D300.

A newer contact has said there will be an APS-H based xxD sized body. It will have a version of the EOS-1 AF system, so expect more AF points than the current 50D. It will shoot 6fps. It will have the same build quality of the 5D Mark II. It will have a new 12.1mp sensor.

The hope is to retail the camera for $1999 USD initially.

CR’s Take
At that price point, there is definitely room for another prosumer camera. Perhaps a 50D with video?

[drifit]

I'd like to test this lens

value for money.

for others that left behind,
mid range and high end range lenses are more capable to produce good or excellent images. even 3rd party lenses maker, Sigma does produce lenses to shy Leica away. i did post it in other thread.
no doubt leica and carl zeiss also produce great lenses. affordable is the barrier. one may treat leica or carl zeiss is godlike camera and lenses, doesnt mean other will follow. by the way, my hand phone camera also having carl zeiss lens.
testing lenses against image produce to the wall is different onto film or digital sensor. as i said above, most lenses are capable to produce excellent image. again, unless one needs to print it to 30' X 40'. the bigger the print, we always can touch up in the computer. again, why need to debate which is better? i tell can confirm and stand on my view. my mother produce 2 lenses and can never be challenge by Leica nor Carl Zeiss. my two eyes with around 45mm f/1.0. no barrel distortion, no pincushion. not even chromatic abbreviation, no coma and no astigmatism. single elements only.

old austin engine is like comparing P&S film camera with mercedes S320 which will be nikon F5. current mercedes s350 is like nikon D3x. time has passed. one may say my leica m6.2 can sell USD5000, but where is the market. maybe just one old uncle that appreciate will buy it at USD8000.

again, why need spend R&D to produce dedicated lenses for aps-c format?
i am a professional photographer. i do mostly in sports such as badminton, F1, football, swimming etc.... i carry EOS 1D III as standard issue. now, i get 7D as back-up body. i will consider myself stupid to get dedicated lenses for 7D and lugging around, whereas the lenses can use with both body. trust me on this, not many enthusiast in here(BC), ever carry 15kgs of photography equipments wondering around for days. i dare to challenge.

we are very out of topic. as we do request facts, we request photos and yet only talk in here. we do love to learn from each other on the final images that produced not debating which gear is the BEST in world. share with us, the excellent photographs, let us learn.

i can take badminton photography with my Canon digital camera G7 which i can say better than some one using EOS 5D + 200mm f/2.8.

[drifit]

hahahaha thats what I thought too when I replied I'm sure its typo but surely if it exist I would want to try one

where is the mm? arr.... too rush.

[drifit]

Canon EOS 60D/7D – APS-H? [CR1]

my guess is 7D is out to hammer D300s.
as for (if the is any) 60D, i have no idea what will it becomes. just now, i stop at my friend's place and chit-chat about it too.
IF, canon comes out 60D, what will it be? committing suicide? we also dont know why canon comes out so many similiar body.

[ctjcad]

by early next year, the EOS 1D Mark III will be 3 years old, can you help me get one at RM500 as you come to Malaysia next year. of course i want the working 1D Mark III, not those broken sensor or totally not working. at least 70% condition will be fine. thanks.
...

..the price of the 1D MkIII will come down, for sure. However, i doubt it'll come down to RM500 by next yr. Maybe in 15-20 yrs...
For one, the 1D MkII's prices have gone down at least more than 50%, but it's been 4-5 yrs since it first came out...
For the mid-range DSLRs, their prices will probably come down a bit faster..

...
Does the 7D have dedicated top quality L lenses without having to use its bigger brother's?

...Why, oh why, do you have to use big brother's L lenses when a dedicated L lens can extend your reach photographically.
...Isn't it better to cure the source of this problem by coming out with dedicated L lenses for this format?
...

I think you misunderstand me. What I am saying is that the EOS 7D has no dedicated high quality L class lenses as of today. The EF-S 7-12mm is not listed and even if it is listed is still not a dedicated L lens but a lens of less stellar performance than L lenses.
...

ah now I understand what you mean. yes currently there is no dedicated L for crop. there is no EF-S L form. But even that, some of the EF-S has very high IQ and can be compared to the L lens IQ. Take example 10-22 and 17-55 lens. especially the 17-55 IQ can be compared to L lenses. the only missing part is it does not have the same alloy lens body and no weather sealing.

..as pointed out by ae86trueno, by name, there is no dedicated "L" lenses for the APS-C type bodies. But technically, Canon have a small but growing series of EF-S lenses available, ranging from inexpensive kit lenses to very good high-quality lenses with image stabilization. There’s even a very interesting 60mm macro lens with an EF-S mount. The super wide angle EF-S 10-22mm 3.5-4.5 USM (roughly 16-35mm coverage if it were full frame) is particularly well regarded; It's interesting to note that despite the use of multiple aspherics and super UD glass, this particular lens doesn't get an "L" designation or a red ring! If it were an EF lens, it would probably be designated "L". Class discrimination? No "L" for EF-S lenses? Who knows. Not that it matters. It's how well it works, not what's written on it that counts. Only time (and testing) will tell on that score. So, is the EF-S 17-55 2.8 IS USM lens, as mentioned above, which is an L lens in all but build quality and name.

[weeyeh]

Let us say you consider three different Canon camera sizes, the F/F, the APS-C, and the P&S. Designing a lens of the same focal length, the same lens speed, with the same quality in optics and mechanical construction, it is obvious which lens will be larger and heavier. With this it should be possible to increase the APS-C' lens speed by one stop and still keep it smaller and lighter than the same lens on the F/F.

In theory, you lose some weight from producing a lens with a smaller image circle. Without changing the optical formula, weight reduction can only originate from outer circumferences of elements behind the aperture. Increasing the aperture by 1 stop essentially double the weight of the lens assembly.

In real life examples, none of the lens makers has done what you have proposed -- to increase the aperture by 1 stop even from image circle reduction of 2x radius (4/3 vs FF). None of Leica, Zeiss, Canon, Nikon or Olympus has done it.

I will appreciate if you can just give 1 example to support your claim instead of theorizing.

Lens size is also dependent on the sensor size. However, if a lens on a F/F is lighter than another lens of the same focal length and speed on an APS-C, then we are not comparing apples with apples. Cheap lens use more plastics and cheap optics that are light, contributing to its light weight. Do you know why Canon's L lenses and almost all Leica lenses are very heavy? The same applies to Olympus' very high quality fast lenses made for their 4/3 cameras.

Now now, the lens I listed are Canon L and Nikon G lenses. Cheap lens?

You are totally missing the point. You said 200/2.8 for FF will be heavier than a 200/2.0 for APC-S. I brought out examples showing otherwise albeit with 300/2.8 4/3 vs 300/2.8 FF vs 300/4 FF (the former being the smallest format but the heaviest).

Of course unwanted light reflects bad lens design. No lens designer will design a lens specifically for more than one format. I have experimented with this-using Hasselblad Zeiss lenses on the Leica-and they were easily out-gunned by their little 35mm Leican M lenses. On the Leica M body this was easy to test. You hust mount a frosted pc of plate glass on the film plane, focus at colour test charts on the wall, and then use a 50 x magnifier to examine the frosted glass. No need to take pictures or to depend on the recording medium. It is strictly putting optics to the test, without any other inputs from sensors, films, shutter, camera shake, etc.

Red herring fallacy. What you are showing is how Hasselblad Zeiss lens has lower absolute resolving power than your 35mm lens. How is this relevant to that a larger image circle than sensor size degrades the picture?

[drifit]

i really lost where we are.

big lens such as hasselblad is better as one use with leica camera.
do anyone know what is sweet spot for lenses? it is the middle.
as when the hasselblad mount to leica, the 35mm film get the 'sweet spot' of the larger lens. same to aps-c using FF lenses. centre = 'sweet spot' = better quality image. go merry-go-round and confuse me further.
again, why need to produce dedicated "L" lenses for 7D?

[ae86trueno]

i really lost where we are.

big lens such as hasselblad is better as one use with leica camera.
do anyone know what is sweet spot for lenses? it is the middle.
as when the hasselblad mount to leica, the 35mm film get the 'sweet spot' of the larger lens. same to aps-c using FF lenses. centre = 'sweet spot' = better quality image. go merry-go-round and confuse me further.
again, why need to produce dedicated "L" lenses for 7D?

ding ding ding ding.. jackpot!
with aps-c using 35mm lens, it take the good part (center).

now I will throw something in... well I was actually trying to understand why.. but has anyone ever check the AF of those FF compared to aps-c?
you will notice on FF, the AF point seem more centered overall compared to APC-C which seem spread further to the side..
Well to be honest I never really try to research but I think this is related to that 'sweet spot' mentioned by Drifit..
also, why the AF in the center is more sensitve and some body has center optimise to f2.8, IMHO this is related to this center 'sweetspot'

[ae86trueno]

..don't know if anyone else read this, but i check out this (rumor) news.
Now, this sounds more like the "killer" camera!!..
Apparently, yes, prior to the release of this 7D line, Canon realized their 50D line wasn't selling too well, thus they came out with this new 7D line. Also, I don't know if they were talking abt this new Canon 7D or will the new 60D be even better than the 7D??
And if the supposed new 60D model comes out with the same tech as the 1D+5D, i wonder how much will they sell it for?? $2000??..

http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/07/c...d7d-aps-h-cr1/

Canon EOS 60D/7D – APS-H? [CR1]
July 13th, 2009 Posted in Canon 60D

New Info
Canon has apparently been humbled by the lack sales with the 50D. The 40D was a fantastic selling camera for Canon.

The motivation for the next incarnation is to directly attack the success of Nikon’s D300.

A newer contact has said there will be an APS-H based xxD sized body. It will have a version of the EOS-1 AF system, so expect more AF points than the current 50D. It will shoot 6fps. It will have the same build quality of the 5D Mark II. It will have a new 12.1mp sensor.

The hope is to retail the camera for $1999 USD initially.

CR’s Take
At that price point, there is definitely room for another prosumer camera. Perhaps a 50D with video?

ah.. so this really confirmed my thinking..
I could be wrong but I after reading this thread, I got impression that Canon should not actually make 7D APS-C, this could screw up the xxD line.
making 60D powerful (close to 7D) and it will kill 7D market, making it far from 7D... why not just call it 50D2 and it wont sell well.
IMHO Canon should make 7D APS-H so it directly inline with 1Ds to 1D as with 5D to 7D. and keep xxD line separate enough to see real difference between xxD line with 7D line.

[eaglehelang]

eagleheng must be new to photography.

.......

No lah, just outdated. When I learnt photo-taking, we used the good ol SLRs, buy 2nd hand cost RM400 to RM500 only . Even then, out of a class of 70, only 2 could afford to get extra lenses, filters, etc to practice more.

After reading all the fun you all having, wanted to get back in, now even more expensive . Oh yeah, I agree with you, it's the skills that's important, not latest tech.

[drifit]

maybe.... just maybe....
canon is dumping its xxD line. there will be no 55D or 60D nor 50D II. move on, coming in 14 months time, 8D!

[ae86trueno]

maybe.... just maybe....
canon is dumping its xxD line. there will be no 55D or 60D nor 50D II. move on, coming in 14 months time, 8D!

yep you could be right, at the moment xxD is squished in between xxxD and 7D. the spec from xxxD is getting closer and closer to xxD line, and 7D being APS-C kinda killed xxD

[weeyeh]

ding ding ding ding.. jackpot!
with aps-c using 35mm lens, it take the good part (center).

now I will throw something in... well I was actually trying to understand why.. but has anyone ever check the AF of those FF compared to aps-c?
you will notice on FF, the AF point seem more centered overall compared to APC-C which seem spread further to the side..
Well to be honest I never really try to research but I think this is related to that 'sweet spot' mentioned by Drifit..
also, why the AF in the center is more sensitve and some body has center optimise to f2.8, IMHO this is related to this center 'sweetspot'

Observation by drifit concurs with the most MTF charts that the resolving power in the centre of the lens tends to (much) better than the outer edges.

However, I do not think centre AF being most sensitive have anything to do with the MTF charts. I believe it is a design decision that is aligned with the way photographers tend to prefer to use AF.

Imagine when area AF does not lock on the correct subject. The fastest way to acquire focus is to choose a single AF sensor. In most cases, the centre sensor is chosen. This is particularly true for event coverage when the scenary is fairly dynamic. Stick with the centre sensor, AF and re-frame is much faster than relying on the camera's AI. As a result, the centre sensor is usually the most sensitive.

Then, of course, there was canon's eye controlled focus.

[ctjcad]

...
I could be wrong but I after reading this thread, I got impression that Canon should not actually make 7D APS-C, this could screw up the xxD line.
...

maybe.... just maybe....
canon is dumping its xxD line. there will be no 55D or 60D nor 50D II. move on, coming in 14 months time, 8D!

yep you could be right, at the moment xxD is squished in between xxxD and 7D. the spec from xxxD is getting closer and closer to xxD line, and 7D being APS-C kinda killed xxD

..if Canon were to dump its xxD line and start their new trend from 7D and then 8D and then 9D, what then comes after 9D if not the.........(dink, dink, dink, dink).....or maybe it's more of a naming convention..
*I have a funny feeling Canon might release a 2D, 3D and 4D line in the future..

... Oh yeah, I agree with you, it's the skills that's important, not latest tech.

..the latest and greatest tech might not be important, but in certain scenarios/situations, (using/selecting) the (appropriate) equipments matter more than the person's skills/ technique..

[Gladius]

No lah, just outdated. When I learnt photo-taking, we used the good ol SLRs, buy 2nd hand cost RM400 to RM500 only . Even then, out of a class of 70, only 2 could afford to get extra lenses, filters, etc to practice more.

After reading all the fun you all having, wanted to get back in, now even more expensive . Oh yeah, I agree with you, it's the skills that's important, not latest tech.

But the thing about digital SLR's is that you pay for the picture taking costs wayyyy... upfront. Other than the shutter expiring, and ther little bits of wear and tear, there is virtually no limit to how many shots you can derive out of a digital SLR. Unlike traditional film, where every frame is precious. A standard 36 frame roll with development and print in 4R costs like RM$40 a pop ? Not to mention the typical 20% or more of wasted frames in its roll.

Shooting 400 frames with a DSLR is a no-brainer really as long as your memory card can take it. And the best part is 36 shots or 36,000 shots, or for that matter 136,000 shots, its the same US$1,700 shots . Even with a typical keeper rate of 20%, and you print all of them in 4R or 5R. Its still cheaper by a huge margin to enjoy photography compared to film !!

You need like to develop 10 rolls of film to get about 300 worthy photos (at best for 80% keeper rate), in typical costs say like that in Malaysia, that's about RM$400!?

Carefully selected 300 shots out of say 1500 costs perhaps RM$240 to print ? Try extrapolating that over 30,000 prints, and the cost differences are tremendous! Amortize that over the initial cost difference to buy a DSLR and its still way cheaper!

So, the real costs of ownership for photography has really come down.