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View Poll Results: What will be Kwun's newest camera for badminton photography?

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  • Canon 7D

    26 31.33%
  • Nikon D700

    16 19.28%
  • Micro 4/3rds camera

    2 2.41%
  • None of the above but it will be Nikon

    14 16.87%
  • None of the above but it will be Canon

    25 30.12%
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  1. #52
    Regular Member george@chongwei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    hey, how come so few people voted on my poll. This must the record lowest votes on a poll on BF.
    ok, i have already got my hands on the vote.

  2. #53
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    Don't underrate the quality of four thirds. I am sure you may know of some sports or wild life photographers who have been using this system. Someone earlier did post about a professional photographer using Four Thirds for wild life.
    Internationally acclaimed renowned Japanese widlife or animal photographer Mitsuaki Iwago travels the globe to take wild life. His work has appeared in and on the cover of National Geographic, using Four Thirds. His "weapon" is the Olympus 300mm F/2.8 prime lens, which translates into a 600mm F/2.8 lens in FF "speak".
    Another renowned photographer, the Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer also uses Four Thirds as a photojournalist. His tools are the Olympus 7-14mm F/4.0 lens and the Olympus 35-100mm F/2.0 lens.
    With the new Micro Four Thirds they can reduce the weight and size of their already small outfit gear even more, without any change in image quality.
    Now, just imagine having a Panasonic Micro GF1 with an Micro Olympus 300mm F/2.8 lens or a Micro 35-100mm F/2.0 lens!

  3. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Yes, Four Thirds is new, Micro Four Thirds is even newer born only a month or two.
    BTW, there are more Four Third Cameras that are dslr than there are Micro Four Thirds that are not considered dslr. The term dslr is a name for any digital camera format that uses reflex viewing through one lens with the aid of a mirror box with or without a pentaprism. In the film days we had the TLR, one lens for viewing and another one for taking pictures.
    Well, we are talking between 4/3 compared to the other dslr.. surely you understand right? or do we really need to be really pedantic here? By the way yes of course I know 4/3 also exist in form of dslr.

    and.. no, while you quote on me but you have not reply with what I was talking about.. as I mentioned sometime ago in another thread, please reply with something related, it just does not make sense I was talking about A and you reply with B.

  4. #55
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    Perhaps there should be another thread on this instead :

    " Which contemporary 'professional digital camera system' will taneepak buy and WHEN will we (if) ever see the photos taken by him using it ? "

  5. #56
    Moderator drifit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ae86trueno View Post
    Well, we are talking between 4/3 compared to the other dslr.. surely you understand right? or do we really need to be really pedantic here? By the way yes of course I know 4/3 also exist in form of dslr.
    not TRUE dslr.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
    Perhaps there should be another thread on this instead :

    " Which contemporary 'professional digital camera system' will taneepak buy and WHEN will we (if) ever see the photos taken by him using it ? "
    or taneepak can get a digital scanner and post some of his great artworks.

  6. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladius View Post
    Perhaps there should be another thread on this instead :

    " Which contemporary 'professional digital camera system' will taneepak buy and WHEN will we (if) ever see the photos taken by him using it ? "
    I'm waiting to see this too

    Quote Originally Posted by drifit View Post
    not TRUE dslr.

    or taneepak can get a digital scanner and post some of his great artworks.
    ah you are right! while 4/3 can change the lens but it does not have the mirror box, the pentaprism.

  7. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ae86trueno View Post
    I'm waiting to see this too



    ah you are right! while 4/3 can change the lens but it does not have the mirror box, the pentaprism.
    You may want to take some photography lessons on how a camera works. Who says 4/3 cameras do not have a mirror box? Pls name me one 4/3 without one.
    To help you, here is a clue-there are currently only 3 micro 4/3 cameras without a mirror box or device called a pentaprism or pentamirror, coming to 4 pretty soon. All the others have a mirror box plus a device, some pentaprism, some pentamirror, to put things right like reversing left to right, right to left, and upside down to right side up.
    Maybe, today's digital gear took awy all the thinking required.

  8. #59
    Moderator drifit's Avatar
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    ok, 4/3 dslr has mirror. thus, their size is just slightly smaller than other dslr such as canon and nikon. not pocketable.
    micro 4/3 is for p&s camera line with interchangeable lenses and also not pocketable too. unless left pocket for camera body, right pocket for 1 lens.
    4/3 dslr isnt going to replace canon or nikon system then.
    micro 4/3 interchangeable lens at normal p&s camera, this one i will buy. if they are still selling at lower end dslr's price, i am not willing to sacrifice the quality over price nor dimension/weight.

  9. #60
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    I looked at some sites about digital cameras and were truly shocked to find some photographic sites completely misunderstand what is a dslr. The only thing more ignorant that I have yet to see is that a rangefinder is a TLR. Maybe some of these so-called photographic sites have become digital automatic photographers-just press a button and presto everthing is taken care of. Has the digital age in photography dulled our minds? We must never allow that to happen. The photograhpher is the brain, the dslr is just a tool, not the other way.

  10. #61
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    Guys, how about moving the m4/3 vs 4/3 vs APS* vs FF discussion to a new thread?

    I'd like to discuss Kwun's next new camera. Any chance he may be looking at the M9?? Shortage of telephoto means he needs to go closer to the action (I bet he wants that). May have to revert to MF/pre-focus though :P
    Last edited by weeyeh; 09-08-2009 at 09:11 AM. Reason: clarify...

  11. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    You may want to take some photography lessons on how a camera works. Who says 4/3 cameras do not have a mirror box? Pls name me one 4/3 without one.
    To help you, here is a clue-there are currently only 3 micro 4/3 cameras without a mirror box or device called a pentaprism or pentamirror, coming to 4 pretty soon. All the others have a mirror box plus a device, some pentaprism, some pentamirror, to put things right like reversing left to right, right to left, and upside down to right side up.
    Maybe, today's digital gear took awy all the thinking required.
    ah yes you are right on 4/3's mirror Taneepak 4/3 does have mirror box but micro 4/3 does not have.
    now back to my question again, does micro 4/3 has the performance, image quality and the price worth compared to dslr (ff, aps-c, and the like).

  12. #63
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    so far no votes for the micro 4/3 camera.

    Perhaps I should have put the title as "what should be......."

  13. #64
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    If you use the best super high grade lenses for the Four Thirds, I believe they will out-perform the Nikon or canon's APS-C format with their dedicated lenses.
    I am not judging from my own experience as I have no 4/3 or APS-C or FF cameras/lenses to test and compare. I have glanced through some reviews that have compared say the ED 7-14mm F4.0 with Canon's and Nikon's APS-C equivalents, and the 4/3 came out on top. You may want to seek out some professionals doing wild life or architecture who use the 4/3 with such super high grade lenses. Olympus makes 3 classes of lenses. The lowest is the kit lenses, next is the high grade, and the top is the super high grade, the latter ostensibly better than Canon's L lenses.
    If you use a top 4/3 camera, the E-3, and any one of the following super grade Olympus lenses, they will out-perform the APS-C cameras.
    Olympus Super Grade lenses:
    1. ED7-14mm F4.0
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0
    5. ED150mm F2.0
    6. ED 300mm F2.8
    Pls note all the zooms have just one constant max. aperture at any focal length.
    One of the strengths of these super high grades is their incomparable defocusing or bokeh, as all such lenses are specifically designed for this feature, making the main subject stand out or appear more prominent.
    Some of you may think this is incredulous. These lenses also have prices that are incredulously high! Custom made Super high grade lenses are also available, even if it is for just one lens. Custom made lenses are not available for the lower two grades.

  14. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    If you use the best super high grade lenses for the Four Thirds, I believe they will out-perform the Nikon or canon's APS-C format with their dedicated lenses.
    I am not judging from my own experience as I have no 4/3 or APS-C or FF cameras/lenses to test and compare. I have glanced through some reviews that have compared say the ED 7-14mm F4.0 with Canon's and Nikon's APS-C equivalents, and the 4/3 came out on top. You may want to seek out some professionals doing wild life or architecture who use the 4/3 with such super high grade lenses. Olympus makes 3 classes of lenses. The lowest is the kit lenses, next is the high grade, and the top is the super high grade, the latter ostensibly better than Canon's L lenses.
    If you use a top 4/3 camera, the E-3, and any one of the following super grade Olympus lenses, they will out-perform the APS-C cameras.
    Olympus Super Grade lenses:
    1. ED7-14mm F4.0
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0
    5. ED150mm F2.0
    6. ED 300mm F2.8
    Pls note all the zooms have just one constant max. aperture at any focal length.
    One of the strengths of these super high grades is their incomparable defocusing or bokeh, as all such lenses are specifically designed for this feature, making the main subject stand out or appear more prominent.
    Some of you may think this is incredulous. These lenses also have prices that are incredulously high! Custom made Super high grade lenses are also available, even if it is for just one lens. Custom made lenses are not available for the lower two grades.
    The lens' quality does affect the bokeh like how natural look the bokeh is (5 aperture blade will have worse than 8 aperture blade) but this does not make the the dof thinner. as far I know dof is affected by how far from the subject and the aperture. while yes 2.0 is considered fast but 4/3 has crop factor of 2. to frame same image between 4/3, aps-c, ff using the same focal length, aperture and with different distance to subject to get same frame, will it have the same dof? I have not check any calculation but my guess, between 4/3, aps-c, FF and using same focal length, same aperture but different distance to subject.. FF will have the smallest dof and 4/3 have widest dof.

  15. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    If you use a top 4/3 camera, the E-3, and any one of the following super grade Olympus lenses, they will out-perform the APS-C cameras.
    Olympus Super Grade lenses:
    1. ED7-14mm F4.0
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0
    5. ED150mm F2.0
    6. ED 300mm F2.8
    Pls note all the zooms have just one constant max. aperture at any focal length.
    One of the strengths of these super high grades is their incomparable defocusing or bokeh, as all such lenses are specifically designed for this feature, making the main subject stand out or appear more prominent.
    Some of you may think this is incredulous. These lenses also have prices that are incredulously high! Custom made Super high grade lenses are also available, even if it is for just one lens. Custom made lenses are not available for the lower two grades.
    That is way over-generalising. You have been reading too much into the promotional brochures and as you have admitted you have never used these lenses or any modern DSLR, so how can you say that the statement you put up as being entirely true and unfettered?

    Firstly, 4/3 sensors have an equivalent FOV of 1/2 that of a FF 36x24mm sensor.

    Which means, in effective focal length, a 7-14mm is approximately 14-28mm in focal length.

    Likewise for the other lenses you listed above.

    BOKEH - is a function of a few factors. (assuming same sensor format)

    i) The focal length of the lens
    ii) The maximum aperture of the lens
    iii) The number of aperture blades
    iv) The curvature shape of the aperture blades
    v) The relative placement of the aperture blades within the lens.
    vi) The diffractive properties and light path of through the lens.

    For i) and ii), for the 4/3 format, you cannot literally compare to the a APS-C camera sensor. There needs to be a conversion to a standard FF focal length and FOV for closer (again not exact nor direct) comparison.

    A conversion to of the lenses you listed from 4/3 to FF format FOV :

    1. ED7-14mm F4.0 -> 14-28mm
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0 -> 28-70mm
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0 -> 70-200mm
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0 -> 180-500mm
    5. ED150mm F2.0 -> 300mm
    6. ED 300mm F2.8 -> 600mm

    And equivalent series avaliable for Canon/Nikon APS-C would include the following:

    1. Sigma 10-24 f/3.5 ->15-36mm
    2. Canon 17-55 f/2.8 ->28-88mm
    3. Tokina 50-135 f/2.8 ->75-202.5mm
    4. Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 -> 150-450mm
    5. Canon 200 f/2.0 IS L -> 320mm
    6. Canon 400 f/2.8 IS L -> 640mm

    Now, on paper, the 4/3 lenses have a bigger aperture in general. However, at equivalent FOV and focal lengths, the effect of this aperture on bokeh completely changes. In fact, the DOF of a f/2.0 lens of a 4/3 system is somewhat like a f/4 lens of a FF 36x24mm system. Likewise for an APS-C system. A f/2.0 lens generates a DOF similar to a f/3.0 or f/3.2 lens for equivalent FOV.

    I loosely mention similar as there is NO DIRECT comparison and just the general characteristics which have been observed.

    So for your list of lenses, it would in effect look something like the following :
    (corrected for focal length and 'equivalent apparent DOF aperture' )

    1. ED7-14mm F4.0 -> 14-28 f/8
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0 -> 28-70 f/4
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0 -> 70-200 f/4
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0 -> 180-500 f/4
    5. ED150mm F2.0 -> 300 f/4
    6. ED 300mm F2.8 -> 600 f/5.6

    And for the list of equivalents I listed :

    1. Sigma 10-24 f/3.5 ->15-36mm f/5.3
    2. Canon 17-55 f/2.8 ->28-88mm f/4.48
    3. Tokina 50-135 f/2.8 ->75-202.5mm f/4.2
    4. Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 -> 150-450mm f/4.2
    5. Canon 200 f/2.0 IS L -> 320mm f/3.2
    6. Canon 400 f/2.8 IS L -> 640mm f/4.2

    I cannot see how "superior" these 4/3 lenses are even on paper when you do the correlating approximate conversions. In fact, at the very wide end and the longer focal lengths, the shallow DOF of the APS-C or FF lenses of equivalent focal lengths trump the Zuiko's both in focal length and aperture.

    So, where and how did you come to your conclusions I really have no idea.

    You should just sell off your 'old' cameras and start shooting with some of these modern DSLR's to fully comprehend what the other people have been talking about in these threads and to debunk the various myths which you seem to have been perpetuating.

  16. #67
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    I am sure if you want to find out you can google some test reviews of the Olympus Super High Grade lenses. Here is one and I am sure there are many www.zs2.hu/csgzsfoto/technical/lenses/.
    BTW, Olympus' Super High Grade lenses won the European EISA "Europeon Professional Lens 2006-2007. This may be a real surprise to many of you who may ask how could such small format 4/3 lenses win a professional lenses award in Europe?
    Re bokeh, this means simply out-of-focus. The out-of-focus can be in front of the main subject or behind. A narrow depth of field from a longer focal length may make the out-of-focus stand out more, but is not a criteria of bokeh. One of the top bokeh lens in the world is the Leica wide angle lens 35mm F2.0 Summicron, for its excellent pleasant defocus both in front and behind the main subject. Such excellent bokeh is more a work of art plus science in which a specially designed spherical aberration is incorporated. Secondly, it also needs a diaphragm that can be round. Out-of-focus must be pleasant and tasteful at near the maximum aperture.

  17. #68
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    Here is a suggested new setup for Kwun:
    1. Panasonic GF1 with adaptor for 4/3 lenses
    2. Zuiko 14-35mm f2.0
    3. Zuiko 35-100mm F2.0
    4. Zuiko 150mm F2.0
    5. Leica Summilux 25mm F1.4
    These are good from the badminton hall to shooting in available light w/o flash, plus almost in any environment. They may be expensive but they are winners of the Europeon Professional lenses in 2006-2007 award, itself that these lenses are not as bad as many would have us believe, unless the judges do not know anything about photography.

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