Akward hand coordination. Miss hits.

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by extremenanopowe, Jan 25, 2010.

  1. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    Have anyone had this problem or seen anyone with similar issue?

    Am looking for experts. Don't simply comments or criticize. Suggestions are ok. ;)

    It's ok to laugh but this issue is quite serious. Please don't say any bad thing if you don't have any good thing to say. Give him some credit for trying.

    Any diagnosis or recommendation to fix this?

    Am still scratching my head as to why he misses some of the simplest shots as well as not being able to navigate his shots.

    I did ask if there's any health issue or coordination issue. He seems to be a very healthy guy. No issue with running or chinups.

    Am not giving up on him though. Improving slowly.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ALVu4azU0g

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msdM9hsfB1w

    tks. ;)
     
  2. bowi12

    bowi12 Regular Member

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    Are you sure he is able to see the shuttle properly?
    It might be worth a try to get his eyes checked. Maybe some eyeglasses will do the trick. That's all I can think of right now.
     
  3. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I've worked with athletes who have severe coordination problems due to a disability. To my eyes, this player does not have a problem with "hand-eye" coordination. He hits the shuttle quite consistently, especially around the forecourt area. At one point he even manages a (weak) backhand clear.

    So the first message should be encouragement. :) All I see here is a player who lacks experience, coaching, or both. I do not see a "hopeless" case. It takes time to learn the technique for a clear.

    I'd recommend simplifying your practice. Trying to practise footwork and hitting at the same time is too demanding; practise only one. For the hitting action, I recommend a simple racket feed so he doesn't have to move; give him time to get ready between each shot. Later, you can progress to rallying with clears ("clear-clear-clear-...").

    His main problem is that he's not reaching up for the shuttle enough. He contacts the shuttle about shoulder height, which is much more awkward. Focus on reaching up to hit the shuttle above his head.

    A related problem is that he seems to be delaying the hit too long. He needs to start his swing earlier; this will give him time to reach the shuttle while it's still high, and will also allow him to use a smoother, "flowing" action -- rather than snatching at the shuttle, which is what he currently does.

    A secondary problem is that, although he is preparing in a sideways-on position, he's not actually turning his body. His feet stay on the ground, which prevents his hips from rotating, which in turn prevents his shoulders from rotating. He is therefore stuck in an awkward position where he's reaching forwards with his racket, but his body is holding him back.

    You have various options for improving this. You can try improving his footwork so that he gets his feet off the ground as he hits. This may be too difficult right now. Alternatively, teach him the "step through" footwork -- this is not ideal, but it's much easier to learn than the correct footwork (he does do this step-through sometimes). As a last resort, simply get him to stand with his feet "square-on" to the net (instead of sideways). This may help him with the hitting action, and you can always adjust it later.

    I've no idea what you're trying to do in the second video.
     
    #3 Gollum, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  4. gingerphil79

    gingerphil79 Regular Member

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    What doesnt help is his arms when is prepares to hit. his elbows are too high up (over his head :eek:). Esp his hitting arm. Bring it down more. For practice now, get him as gollum says to focus on 1 thing such as just hitting it (no movement).

    These things can take time. Am learning new grips and shots at the mo & I feel like a complete amateur, missing the shuttle, mistiming etc. I need Practice practice practice.

    But the important thing when learning to perfect a shot is learning proper technique from get go and also doing it slowly so that in his mind, he will figure it out better and then speed it up when he gets better.

    Also tell him to play keepy uppys with the shuttle and racket in his spare time. Will help his control, hand eye co-ordination and timing etc.
     
  5. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    The coach is not really giving him a chance.

    I don't see the coach pausing between feeding.

    The feeding is too fast for that particular learner.

    I don't see the coach breaking down the technique for the player.

    Crucially, the learner has not got the right preparation. The coach needs to correct this. Exactly what Gingerphil79 said - the racquet arm elbow is above the level of the shoulder and then drops when he hits the shuttle. It should be the other way round.

    I think you need to start with just shadow practice first and then introduce slow feeding of shuttles one by one.....

    Then start to introduce footwork without shuttles.
     
  6. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    Thanks. All suggestions were tested. Am just looking for new clues. He even misses his own serves at times. This means no movements at all. It gets worst when there are movements. My thought is that he got a balancing issues; but nope.

    Same thing goes to feeding him shuttle slowly without him moving (just to swing the racket and he misses it). He still misses it even though the bulls eye was shown where it is. Really amazing. Looks like a bloopers but it isn't.

    Really frustrating. Not easy for him.

    Try not to judge based on the video alone (your name would have been etched as the 'best coach' in the world if you do). You'll scratch your head when you do it personally and all your hairs will be gone sooner than me. ;) Just to share this. I hope you can go thro this experience in order to gain some. ;) Recommend me some exercises which helps him.

    Anyway, he's already getting better. Initially, he misses 90%. Now about 60%. It really tests your patience. It'll take time as usual. Agreed. ;). Suggestions pls. Am not asking you to criticize. Thanks again. As long as your intention is clear, that is fine. Cheers.
     
    #6 extremenanopowe, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    We already did so.

    No magic bullets - practice and practice, time and patience.

    What you can do is hold a stationary shuttle dangling from a string above the head . If he misses that, then it would be difficult to hit a moving target.
     
    #7 Cheung, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  8. Sketchy

    Sketchy Regular Member

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    I'm not a coach, but...
    I think the main problem, like Gollum said, is that he's not contacting the shuttle anywhere near high enough.

    I'd suggest he doesn't try to hit full clears to begin with, as they involve quite a lot of individual movements being timed together - it's tough for anyone to learn it all at once.

    Instead, I'd have him not swing so much, but more or less just reach up to the shuttle, and tap it using wrist alone.
    Once you can see he's consistently contacting the shuttle cleanly and early, then he can gradually try swinging faster, and work up to playing a full clear.
    If you look at his backhand shots, he's actually quite comfortable playing more controlled "flick" shots - it's just when he goes for a big swing that he misses.
     
  9. stumblingfeet

    stumblingfeet Regular Member

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    This is an example of fine motor control dominating gross motor control. When you look at his arm it swings separately from the body, rather than resulting from the body's movement.

    Ideally, gross motor skills initiate the movement for a stroke. For instance, the player gets himself lined up for the shot and sends his weight forward and into rotation before he swings. This will give him much of the power he needs to make the shot. From there, finer movements from the shoulder, arm, wrist and fingers can adjust the aim of the shot.

    What happens when fine motor control dominates? First of all, the body may be misaligned, then momentum of the body is not generated. This leaves the arm without much power to direct, so the shoulder and wrist need to work extra to generate movement as opposed to guiding movement. In addition, in order to maintain full control over their arm, the wrong muscles will co-contract to restrict momentum. While this gives control over the movement of the racquet head, it restricts the ability to make smooth or powerful strokes.

    Anyhow, work on coordinating the body's movement, don't worry too much about the arm, and the swing will come.
     
  10. Mikael

    Mikael Regular Member

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    Hi, first some advice when making a movie like this, also try to put the camera on the other side so we better can see technical issues (grips etc.). Also remember to inform about age and for how long he have played, if he just started yesterday this is pretty good!

    Even I miss the shuttle sometimes lol... (Actually after a long break I had this problem (ssshh) with high shutlles even at the net, I found out that I put to much power into body rotation and arm).

    I think he had periods where he hit the shuttle, especially a period were it went fine as long the shutlle was running... properly because he contrate more!

    1. Concentration, attitude and temperament can be trained in various ways... Also food habits can have an influence and Water?

    2. When it goes wrong it is often because he is pulling down the arm! Also let him Meet the shuttle contra waitng for it.
    Go to his side Near him and show him how to hit, take his arm and guide it more than once, if necesarry (make sure this method is an okay policy at the course, club, parents and of course himself).

    3. Practice hitting both hard, soft and even softer, let him play with the different possibilities, and notice what happens.

    4. You can change the speed of the shuttle...

    5. Vision training, there is a lot of execises for eyes, but normally it is only for high level players and pro's, unless it is really bad. At first don't worry about that.

    6. Don't overdue the "fake it till he make it" concept, but instead of always show "hopeless" attiude from your side, make some encouraging comments too. Nice to hear that you don't give up on him :) be patience.

    7. Did you show the video to him, I think it would be interesting to hear what he is thinking him self, then you get a picture of his world and where he is! Also make him observe other similar players!

    8. The most simple coordination training is simply to play him self just shooting straight up, notice where he is looking?
     
    #10 Mikael, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  11. Dreamzz

    Dreamzz Regular Member

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    i haven't read everyone's comments, but does he play any other sports? more to the point, any other racquet sports? i had a summer where i played quite a lot of tennis which really threw off my badminton, mainly because my positioning changed quite dramatically. i was standing way behind the shuttle, as you would waiting to return a tennis ball. perhaps his is a similar story.
     
  12. Munch

    Munch Regular Member

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    Some things that I have done to help my hand eye coordination:
    1. Juggling. Not too crazy like under the legs and stuff but just try and get the 3 ball juggling. After you get the basics then try changing the pace by making it faster to slower.
    2. Try to hit the shuttle without looking at the spot where my racquet will make contact with it.
    3. Ping pong. It won't kill your arm like tennis will but it will teach you to have faster response. Requires a lot of hand coordination because the ball not always goes straight.

    I have noticed that his right leg is lagging when he swings. Maybe try and get him to move his leg with his body and arm? It'll smooth out the swing and set him up for the direction change.
    Also I have noticed that his arm is charging back while he's waiting for the shuttle. Its too big of a swing back and he should be waiting for the shuttle not charging up while waiting for it.
    As for his net shots, try to tell him to wait at center and move forward when the shuttle begins its way towards him. Then tell him to push forward and use that momentum to move the shuttle over. He shouldn't be depending on the arm to get it over for a net. He's taking the shuttle high which is good as it will work with this body momentum thing.
     
  13. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    Good suggestions guys. I already did ask him to work on his wrist and hand movement at stationary mode first, them move slowly to body movement. Juggling, skipping is a good start. It'll take time for sure. Again, thanks for the ideas.

    Its painfully slow, but a reward worth achieving.

    No more comments required.

    If you see this video, the standing and holding is still funny after telling him to change. The netting is like super stiff. The anticipation is almost totally zero. Not easy to change for sure. About 2 months of training once a week so far. If you see other videos, the rest of the students don't have such an issue. Certainly a unique case. Yes, practice3... ;)

    So, those who are beginners and thinking of trying out badminton... am sure you can do slightly better. So, don't give up hope guys/gals. ;). I am not giving up on him.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuD-8KA1zv8

    rgds
     
  14. JinXi

    JinXi Regular Member

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    I remember a few years back when I just started badminton, I was also not lifting my hand high enough for overhead shots. What my coach made me do was take a few shuttles to the back tramlines of the court.

    Standing in a stationary position as though to play a overhead clear, he got me to place my hand "BEHIND" my head. Then, he told me to throw the shuttle across the net and keeping my hand and straight as possible (almost similar to a cricket bowling, releasing the shuttle at the top of the arc) after some time practicing while stationary, he tend told me to switch my legs while throwing the shuttle, thus rotating the body.

    I believe that anyone will be able to throw a shuttle and after a while, most will get used to it and when playing an overhead clear, lift their hand high above their head.

    P.S. When I just started, I used to get rewarded with a small lolly if i managed to get over a certain number to shuttles over the net continuously. (I was young then and easily bribed :rolleyes:)

    This gave me inspiration to try and throw the shuttle as well as possible (as if you bend your hand too much or don't lift your hand high enough, the shuttle wont go over the net)-And i don't get my lollies:crying::crying:

    Maybe you can give him some similar inspiration (such as asking his GF to give him a kiss if he gets a certain number of shuttles over the net?:eek:)


    KEEP TRYING. NEVER GIVE UP !!!!!!
     
    #14 JinXi, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  15. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Unfortunately, there are just some people that are not gifted with athleticism. I've seen guys and girls that look like me when I try to play left handed, no coordination at all (really funny to see actually).

    While watching the videos I noticed something that I see a lot both in tennis and badminton beginners with coordination problems, they swing the same way all the time at the exact same spot. In order to do this they move their body around and try to do the same swing instead of just moving the upper body and arm to get them in position.

    I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't move but sometimes it's almost comical how much effort someone will put into trying to get their body into the exact same position each time so they can make their "comfort" swing. If the shuttle is even slightly too high, too low or off to the side they cannot make the adjustment fast enough to make contact.

    Personally I think there is too much variation in the direction and speed the shuttle is coming at him right now. He needs to develop some confidence that he can hit the shuttle each time he swings. I'd actually suggest you stand less than 10' away from him and feed him the shuttles by hand OR start with some simple net shots with you on the other side of the net. Don't make him lunge, just stand there and get used to making contact with the shuttle.

    In tennis I would use a ball machine to get the ball exactly the same every time, but unfortunately there is no such thing for badminton yet (would probably make a fortune if you could invent one).

    I'm not sure if your student is getting frustrated or not but I sure would be, develop some simple drills to help him build his confidence.
     
  16. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    It already exists.

    Not cheap though.
     
  17. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I really don't think he's doing that badly. I feel you're judging him rather harshly.

    If this is after 8 coaching sessions, starting with zero badminton experience, then he's doing fine. Sure, he may not be picking it up as quickly as the others; but is that really a problem?

    Consider your own attitude as a coach here. In this thread, you've asked for people to be respectful:

    ...yet the only comments putting him down come from you, his coach. Everyone here is being constructive and supportive of this player -- except you.

    On a practical note, druss has the right idea:

    Beware progressing your practices too quickly. You need to be patient and stick with simpler practices until he's ready to move on (when he's really ready, not when you want/hope that he's ready).
     
    #17 Gollum, Jan 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  18. gingerphil79

    gingerphil79 Regular Member

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    I have a player like this in my club. make sure his grip is good. The drives in the last video are good idea, just make sure he has short grip for more control and a almost panhandle grip if that is supposed to be an attacking drive drill. Keep hitting to same spot roughly which has been said before.

    For the last video, I was making his mistakes last nit using a new grip. Make sure his grip for those close drives is short almost panhandle. He is missing it because of his forearm rotation and mistiming it. Being that close to net, an almost panhandle grip (net kill) and just moving the forearm up and down (NOT TWISTING it) and not moving the whole arm will help him big time. Right now for that shot, his whole arm is moving so much and twisting. This is not a smash or clear, its a close drive shot. Lot less movement needed in the arm and body needed.

    I wish you the best of luck. But 1 on 1 coaching will help him progress the most. But try and keep it easy because if he mishits all the time, he mite just give up hope. His timing and coordination will come!!
     
    #18 gingerphil79, Jan 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  19. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Only 8 sessions? And he was a beginner before that? Then he's doing well! Entirely agree with Druss and Gollum, hence the most consistent object to hit would be the stationary one (as I suggested before)

    sorry, this player is nowhere near practising drives. The coach needs to work on basics (and drives are not a basic technique;))
     
    #19 Cheung, Jan 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  20. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Wow, I had no idea... that does look pretty expensive, especially if it has no competition.
     

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