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  1. #18
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    I have over 1000 racquet restrungs under my belt. I use a 2-point machine and max tension I strung was 28/30 Lbs. I always use the method described by Master Silentheart to tension the last untensioned bit of string. I don't encounter any problem using an awl. Taneepak, can you tell us how much heat have induced to the string by doing that? Can you back up what you said by calculation or factual info?

    Thanks,



    KK

  2. #19
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    on awl usuage.

    awl usage is dangerous only when misused and/or is of the wrong type/shape/diameter. In silentheart example of assisting tying off the last cross, i don't see any danger of it. In fact, it is how stringings were done long ago without stringing machine. Back then, the string is even more delicate (guts) than today's synthetic polymer fibers.

    i wasn't aware of the fire hazard of using an awl LOL. The heat generated do exist theoretically but it is so infinitesimally small that we r talking about at molecular level, like <10C degree on the outer polymer layer but heat dissipate in <0.25 second if u r using a metallic awl which i believe 99.9% awl points are metallic. Heat generated by friction while passing string through each and every grommets and against all other strings while stringing is far far far >>>>>>> than what the awl can do. For those who claim that they can string a racket in < 30 mins, i suggest they wear fire resistant gloves, safety goggle and have smoke detector located above the stringing machine LOL

    er
    Last edited by cooler; 02-11-2010 at 01:00 PM.

  3. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Stringing the crosses from the top down will always give a tighter upper stringbed than stringing the crosses from the bottom up.
    The main purpose of stringing the crosses from the top is not to minimize breakage from mishits. As a matter of fact, AOTBE, stringing the crosses from the top down will always have a higher tendency to have the top cross string snap from mishit than stringing the crosses from the bottom up at high tensions.
    a truly good stringer is the one that is able to provide a consistent job and/or as per customer specification. If a customer ask for a cross tension of 25 lbs (and no PT), i give them a cross stringbed that is 25 lbs across the entire racket, top to throat, NOT TIGHTER NOR LOOSER UPPER STRINGBED.
    Last edited by cooler; 02-11-2010 at 01:08 PM.

  4. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    on awl usuage.

    awl usage is dangerous only when misused and/or is of the wrong type/shape/diameter. In silentheart example of assisting tying off the last cross, i don't see any danger of it. In fact, it is how stringings were done long ago without stringing machine. Back then, the string is even more delicate (guts) than today's synthetic polymer fibers.

    i wasn't aware of the fire hazard of using an awl LOL. The heat generated do exist theoretically but it is so infinitesimally small that we r talking about at molecular level, like <10C degree on the outer polymer layer but heat dissipate in <0.25 second if u r using a metallic awl which i believe 99.9% awl points are metallic. Heat generated by friction while passing string through each and every grommets and against all other strings while stringing is far far far >>>>>>> than what the awl can do. For those who claim that they can string a racket in < 30 mins, i suggest they wear fire resistant gloves, safety goggle and have smoke detector located above the stringing machine LOL

    er

    I concur with what Cooler said.

  5. #22
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    First, let me clear this issue on whether stringing the crosses from the top down or from the bottome up gives a tighter upper string bed.
    I am sure everyone can find this out by simply moving the first 11 top cross strings with a finger. Stringing the crosses from the bottom up will have very loose cross strings at the top, even if the last cross string at the top has an added 10% higher tension than the tension used on the other crosses.
    Second, let us hear from stringers who string the crosses from bottom up at say 32lbs with the last cross at the top at 35lbs, using an awl for that last "stop"before the knot tie-off. Of course there is a lot of heat as the tensioned 35lbs of the last string is being released by the tensioner bites into the grommet hole with the string/awl taking such a high load.
    I may even suggest you test this "awl silliness" at high tension with all your stringing jobs and just find out its high cost in broken strings.

  6. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    a truly good stringer is the one that is able to provide a consistent job and/or as per customer specification. If a customer ask for a cross tension of 25 lbs (and no PT), i give them a cross stringbed that is 25 lbs across the entire racket, top to throat, NOT TIGHTER NOR LOOSER UPPER STRINGBED.
    Look, a strung badminton racquet will always have one half of the stringbed tighter than the other half. This is due to one half using a real or pseudo starting knot to start off the cross stringing and the other half using a tie-off to finish its last cross string. One side is being pulled (always tighter), the other side being tied off (loses tension).
    It is better to have the top half of the stringbed tighter for improved playability. The bottom half of the stringbed has less power.

  7. #24
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    1) No one is advocate 30+ for every one except you.
    2) Stop using extreme example for your excuse. I would like to ask you, after you tie the "Proper" starting knot, when you pull the very top string, don't you produce compression on the string and produce same level of heat? So your argument makes absolute no sense.
    3) Guess what, metal is a better heat conductor than air or polymers. So any heat produced by awl insertion, will dissipate much faster than the heat dissipate in the air or by the string. So your argument holds no water.
    4) I can tell you this. No matter how you sting it, top down or throat up, given the same tension, it will be harder to move top few string than lower few strings. Why? because the top few crosses are shorter then the lower crosses. By physic, it takes more force to displace the same distance. I will not go into detail because it is just high school physics. Please refer to your text book if you ever took physics.
    5) So what happen if you string cross center out just like the main? Should the top feel the same as lower string bed?
    6) Please start a new thread on this subject if you wish. We tried to answer the question on the first post. Your posts is no help what so ever... I know you like to listen to yourself talk. I am not going to stop you.

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    6) Please start a new thread on this subject if you wish. We tried to answer the question on the first post. Your posts is no help what so ever... I know you like to listen to yourself talk. I am not going to stop you.
    I would actually like to edit the title of the thread to "cross stringing variations" rather than have the discussion moved to another thread. So if a mod can please help me do that....

    All these discussion facts are very interesting to read. Thanks a lot guys

  9. #26
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    Just as a note, and keeping in mind that I've only strung about 50 rackets, I do a 2 piece stringing method and always increase the tension by 2-3 lbs on the last couple of strings to help with the issue of loss of tension due to the knot. I also use an awl to help hold tension as I pull on the string before knotting again to help reduce loss in tension but do not release the clamp on the last string until I've tied the knot and removed the awl.

    Not sure if what I'm doing is the best way or not but I get good results which I, and those I string for, are happy with.

    In the end, while these discussions are great from an academic point of view, as long as you're happy with the stringing method that you, or your stringer, uses then "to each their own".

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    First, let me clear this issue on whether stringing the crosses from the top down or from the bottome up gives a tighter upper string bed.
    I am sure everyone can find this out by simply moving the first 11 top cross strings with a finger. Stringing the crosses from the bottom up will have very loose cross strings at the top, even if the last cross string at the top has an added 10% higher tension than the tension used on the other crosses.
    Second, let us hear from stringers who string the crosses from bottom up at say 32lbs with the last cross at the top at 35lbs, using an awl for that last "stop"before the knot tie-off. Of course there is a lot of heat as the tensioned 35lbs of the last string is being released by the tensioner bites into the grommet hole with the string/awl taking such a high load.
    I may even suggest you test this "awl silliness" at high tension with all your stringing jobs and just find out its high cost in broken strings.
    2nd point.
    if the racket is spec'ed to be strung at 32 lbs, on every pull, the string slide and compress onto the grommet. So, on every tensioning, u r generating heat on the string-grommet contact. It is no more worst or better than the situation on the last cross when an awl is used for the compression. Ok, u add 3 more lbs to the 32 lbs on last cross, i say the extra heat from 35 lbs tensioning is too small even on imagination level. With heat loss to the awl itself, I say the heat endured by the last string-grommet contact at 35lbs is less than heat absorbed by the strings and grommet on all other 32 lbs pull. Therefore, your make belief that the last cross generating damaging heat to the string is wrong and unsubstantiated. As i had said before, heat generated from string runnng through each grommet is far far far >>>> than the heat suffered by the string-grommet compression and movement on the last cross.

    u say it is playing with fire(high cost of broken strings) when using awl to assist tie-off but we have testimonies showing nothing like that happened.

    on both points above, the only heat i feel is the hot air u r blowing.

    on your 1st point, i have a theory to explain all that, but not ready to disclose it yet. The theory, is supported by science principles. In the meantime, to all stringers, keep doing what ur doing. For taneepak, he'll do what he believe in, i rather not waste my energy changing his tradition
    Last edited by cooler; 02-12-2010 at 01:07 AM.

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    1) No one is advocate 30+ for every one except you.
    2) Stop using extreme example for your excuse. I would like to ask you, after you tie the "Proper" starting knot, when you pull the very top string, don't you produce compression on the string and produce same level of heat? So your argument makes absolute no sense.
    3) Guess what, metal is a better heat conductor than air or polymers. So any heat produced by awl insertion, will dissipate much faster than the heat dissipate in the air or by the string. So your argument holds no water.
    4) I can tell you this. No matter how you sting it, top down or throat up, given the same tension, it will be harder to move top few string than lower few strings. Why? because the top few crosses are shorter then the lower crosses. By physic, it takes more force to displace the same distance. I will not go into detail because it is just high school physics. Please refer to your text book if you ever took physics.
    5) So what happen if you string cross center out just like the main? Should the top feel the same as lower string bed?
    6) Please start a new thread on this subject if you wish. We tried to answer the question on the first post. Your posts is no help what so ever... I know you like to listen to yourself talk. I am not going to stop you.
    1. I use 32 to 35lbs on my first cross string at the top very frequently for my more advanced customers, so it is not unsual for me. I am citing this tension range as typical of very high tension stringing. However, my earlier warning about the silliness of using an awl to poke into a grommet hole on the last cross string to facilitate the knot tie-off holds true for lower mid-range tensions too.
    Whilst the use of the awl in tennis stringing with its very thick strings and huge grommet holes may be acceptable, in badminton racquets it is just poor stringmanship.
    Remember, the awl was introduced for manual stringing by hand where after every pull of each string you would stick the awl into the grommet hole to stop the tensioned string from moving. Hand stringing, typically in the low 15lbs, is a far cry from today's tensions used in badminton racquets.
    2. No, when I tensioned the first cross string at the top at say 33lbs all I see is an extreme tightening of the 5-loop starting knot. Heat, what heat? In the grommet with the starting knot there is only the string taking up the tunnel space-no metallic awl or other objects to take up more room and create unnecessary heat from a "blocked" or over-crowded hole.
    Now, do you see where and why there is unnecessary heat being generated.
    3. With a metal awl that is heated it will of course do an unfriendly act on the string. There is not enough empty space in that damn hole for any air to cool the heat and there are no mechanical heat sinks to divert the heat.
    4. No, this is not completely true. Let us stick to the point here, and that is a top down cross stringing will result in a stiffer upper stringbed than stringing the crosses from the bottom up. You have earlier claimed the very opposite to be the case. I am saying you are wrong.
    5. Stringing the crosses from the middle is as bad as stringing the crosses from the bottom up insofar as playability is concerned. The former uses no starting or pseudo starting knot and would lose even more tension.
    6. I have in my first post in this thread addressed the question raised in this thread. Using an extra cross is counter-productive. Instead, I advocate using one less cross string, missing out the second last cross at the bottom, for the greastes and most optimal playability.

    In summary, after all what is said and rebutted, I wish to put on record my stand on this:
    1. Using one less cross string, specifically omitting the second last cross at the bottom, improves playability and power.
    2. Using an awl for that last finishing cross on badminton racquets is not recommended. It is suicidal at high tensions. It shortens the life of the string.

  12. #29
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    Hey Master Taneepak. You've mentioned heat will produce when using an awl and increase of air friction when adding one more cross. What is the magnitude of heat and friction we are talking about? Can you back them up with some calculations? I've strung over 1000 racquets at mid range tensions as what you defined and using an awl for knotting, nothing happened so far. I'm an engineer and I would like to see something substantial to prove your theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    3. With a metal awl that is heated it will of course do an unfriendly act on the string. There is not enough empty space in that damn hole for any air to cool the heat and there are no mechanical heat sinks to divert the heat.
    .
    the metal awl is the mechancial heat sink, an excellent one too.
    air is poor in conducting of heat.

  14. #31
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    There are threads and posts on this column "Stringing Techniques & Tools" containing sorry tales about the use of the awl.
    Cooler, since you are good with retrieving old records you can do a search. There are enough familiar names who have broken strings from using the awl.

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    There are threads and posts on this column "Stringing Techniques & Tools" containing sorry tales about the use of the awl.
    Cooler, since you are good with retrieving old records you can do a search. There are enough familiar names who have broken strings from using the awl.
    Yeah, and you are the one claiming waxed dental floss will cause friction and generate heat to damage the string.

  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    There are threads and posts on this column "Stringing Techniques & Tools" containing sorry tales about the use of the awl.
    Cooler, since you are good with retrieving old records you can do a search. There are enough familiar names who have broken strings from using the awl.
    Errr, let me repost what i've said in post #19.


    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    on awl usuage.
    awl usage is dangerous only when misused and/or is of the wrong type/shape/diameter.
    there are also people broken rackets while playing badminton, should they stop playing badminton?

    there are stringers who have broken rackets while stringing, should they abandon their stringing endeavor?

    Do u want to hear from all stringers of their every successful usage of awl stories here??
    Last edited by cooler; 02-12-2010 at 10:49 AM.

  17. #34
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    Master Taneepak, be specific and tell us what the magnitude of heat induced to the string when the awl is used.

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