Arguing with opponents who argue with the umpire

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by alexh, Mar 10, 2010.

  1. alexh

    alexh Regular Member

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    I had an unpleasant little argument after a match last night, but it raises an interesting dilemma.

    The match was part of a weekly B/C grade competition in which players take turns to umpire each others' games. Generally there are no trained officials present. It's accepted that there will be a few umpiring mistakes, but on average it works out OK.

    The issue arose when I played a net kill shot. I was fairly sure it was a legal shot: I made contact with the shuttle on my own side of the net, and didn't touch the net at all. The umpire awarded the point to me without hesitation. But as I prepared to serve the next point, I heard the opponent yelling, something along the lines of "but his racket crossed the net!"

    So next the umpire agreed that my racket really did cross over the net, and changed his decision, awarding the point to my opponent. I asked for a clarification: did I make contact with the shuttle before it crossed the net, or was it only my followthrough that went over the net?

    At this point it was clear that neither the umpire nor my opponent actually knew the relevant rule. (Quoted in this post, if you need a reminder.) I explained, and the umpire said we should wait a moment while he went to ask someone for advice. The opponent replied along the lines of "don't worry about it, let's just play, you can can have the point." So the umpire changed his decision a second time, and the match carried on.

    After the match was over, the opponent criticised me for my "bad behaviour". He reminded me that, according to the code of conduct for this particular competition, the umpire's decision is final (even if it's obviously wrong); there is no right of appeal. The question of whether anyone's knowledge of the rules was correct just wasn't relevant. I shouldn't have held up the play to debate it; I should have just conceded the argument and got on with playing the match.

    He certainly does have a valid point here. But I was surprised at his reaction, since it was my opponent who first challenged the umpire's decision.

    Now here is the dilemma:

    Option A: Two wrongs don't make a right. My opponent was wrong to challenge the umpire's initial decision. But I was also wrong to challenge the challenge. I should have just ignored my opponent's bad behaviour and got ready to receive the next serve.

    Option B: Don't reward the bad behaviour. If the opponent is allowed to get away with challenging an umpiring decision, it gives them a psychological edge (as well as setting the scene for future arguments). Ideally the umpire would have a put a stop to it by refusing to change his decision even once. But since the umpire was indecisive, it was important for me to stand my ground and make it clear that I wouldn't put up with any nonsense.

    Which option would you choose? Or can you come up with an Option C that's better than both of the above?
     
  2. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    I would have argued it. If your opponent feels that he can argue calls then why can't you? It was obvious that neither the opponent nor the judge knew the rule so asking for clarification is not out of line. This happens in international matches too so why not at yours? Any umpire can ask for clarification from the tournament ref if he wants to.

    If someone had come up to me after and said that to me I would have clocked him one. He obviously has a double standard and thinks that while he should be allowed to do something no one else should.
     
  3. alexh

    alexh Regular Member

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    I think this is the core of the controversy. Ours isn't a "serious" competition. If we stopped and argued every time the umpire made a mistake then it would be chaos. The umpires aren't as well trained as the ones in international matches (in fact we're not trained at all), and there is no ref present. It's not an ideal situation. We just have to figure out how to make the best of it.

    But thanks for your vote of confidence :)
     
  4. Fidget

    Fidget Regular Member

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    You definitely did nothing wrong. You were awarded the point. It was contended on a wrong premise. And then you clarified it.

    The way you describe it, you were calm and sensible throughout. I admire your demeanor toward your opponent. :)
    (And as a fellow Canadian I can also understand druss' ice hockey-like impulse to "clock him".:rolleyes:)
     
  5. kish-mah-ash

    kish-mah-ash Regular Member

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    bro alexh,your situation happens often and happens in interneaitol professional tourneys as well.
    my feeling is, i think you should've jsut let your opponent argue with the umpire and if your opponent has any beef after the match (win or lose),he won't have one with you.
    i know 1 pt might be a differecne maker in the match,to some people, but in myu opinion, arguing over such issue is not worth the hassle. the key is you want to not be part of any decision making in that controversial situation and try to leave a good impression with your opponent, if you can help it.
    of course,that's easier said than done.

    hoave you played against your opponent before? or have you seen such behavior from him?
     
  6. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    I would have done the same, Alexh
     
  7. ALERIN

    ALERIN Regular Member

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    Alexh,

    In my opinion you did right, valid shot, you were awarded the point at first instance and situation only change when your oponent argued.

    But have another question,

    Have seen many times in all kind of matches that players know they have done fault or shuttles goes out and they still argues to umpires, maybe they thing this is a way to "press" umpires and in case on doubt the umpire will award the point to them.

    What do you think about this constant pressure?
     
  8. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    Make a rule to allow the umpire makes the final decision. No arguing. ;)
    Discuss about some of the issues after the game and seek clarification. Time is precious. ;)
     
  9. venkatesh

    venkatesh Regular Member

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    I would have done the same. In club level competition, sometimes, the umpire don't know the rules. They don't even have a copy of the updated rules and regulation.
     
  10. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    The problem I have is that while the umpires are not trained and since the players are the umpires I find it difficult to believe that some idiot would decide to argue a call when he does not know the rules.

    I suggest you circulate a current copy of the laws of badminton in your club.

    Right is right, if some hypocrite came up to me to chew me out for doing what he had already done I would definitely not take it.

    I am polite to those who are polite to me.

    Quite frankly, if you're going to play competitive, doesn't matter at what level, you should damn well know the rules.
     
    #10 druss, Mar 13, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2010
  11. alexh

    alexh Regular Member

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    I agree with both these statements! So it's still a dilemma...
     
  12. sohowslife_

    sohowslife_ Regular Member

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    hey i play in the B/C grade competition in adelaide. do u play at lockleys on wednesday nights?
    to be honest something like that isnt worth the time considering the scoring isnt the same as a "normal" game of badminton as singles is up to 15 and doubles is to 21, no setting and best out of 2 sets :crying:
    i really do wonder why im still playing on wednesday nights :cool:
    something like this would just carry the game AND the night on for longer...
     
  13. bigfatfish

    bigfatfish Regular Member

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    juz some quick pts:

    -ur title is wrong. u r not arguing wif ur opponent.;)
    -appeals on questions of law should b made b4 the next service, so both of u did right.

    -u r doing right confirmation of the law 4 ur appeal.
    -it's the umpire's judgement on the pt of contact of the shuttle 2 make final decision.

    -if ur opp was yelling, he was "behaving in an offensive manner" or guilty of misconduct, thus liable to warning "yellow card".

    the final decision was made, so u can ignore whatever bull ur opp want 2 claim after the next service, let alone after the game.
     

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