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  1. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    And yet, you are just making it worse. We are pointing out the issues and problems we will be seeing. Yet, you are just posting some comments of personal attack in nature. Yes, I do not like BO. I do not like him because I see what he did in IL and in US Senate. I do not like him because he is all talk and no idea of how to fix the problems.
    Please read this.
    http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...-requests.html
    Another pay to play attach to BO. Oh yeah, he is as corrupted as any IL politician.
    Alright then silentheart, that's more like it. Just fyi, you might spot me in N. Greenview...so guess we've met but just don't know each other. Btw, I see them poor guys in and out most every day and I don't think it's ever about the tort game. It's about costing the government more if we don't take care of it right now.

    Well, I regret we have differing views and I apologise for that.
    Last edited by GrayDark; 03-23-2010 at 01:17 AM.

  2. #19
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    What a load of rubbish this thread title "The sky has finally fallen" seems to imply. First the sky has not fallen at all. If any thing it has given to a new dawn. Whatever happens from now cannot do anything worse than what is happening now. How can anything get worse?
    The current health care system in the US is an embarrasment to the US. It is driven by market forces, a Siamese twin of Wall Street. You know what happened to Wall Street.
    How can Americans spend so much on health care and yet die younger than citizens of other developed countries? There are countries that live healthier and longer and at cheaper costs than the US and yet have more universal coverage for everyone.
    There are something in life that every human being is entitled to. It shouldn't be money driven.

  3. #20
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    Its a dilemma now. The perception here is that USA is holding the world in terms of economic stability. The world need them to keep on spending. Unless china opens up.

  4. #21
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    The following statistics reveal the depth of despair about the current American healthcare system.

    -Life expectancy of Americans is 77 years of age, the UK 79, Germany 79, Japan 82, and Hong Kong 82.3.
    -Infant mortality rate in the US is 6.8 per 1,000 live births. In the UK it is 5.1; Germany 3.9. Japan 2.8, and Hong Kong 2.9.
    -Percentage of GDP spent on healthcare: US 16%, advanced EU countries around 7% to 10%, Japan 8%, Australia 9%, Hong Kong 5.3%.

    How on earth can America be so inefficient in spending and delivering acceptable healthcare? I will bet my bottom dollar that American healthcare system has had too much of that Wall Street madness in which the poor were regarded as dispensable. That is the reason for such shocking health statistics and at such sky-high costs-the poor were left to die and those that could pay were forced to pay twice or triple the market rate.

  5. #22
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    As far as I know US is the only develop country that does not have public health care system until yesterday. From humanity point of view its show a lack of caring to the less fortunates. Those millions of American who could not afford health insurance perhaps already tried their best to improve their living standard but at the end of the day were just not so lucky as the rest that they end up too poor to have a health cover.

    As far as economy and money are concern i think the new health care system is not that bad. An injection towards health care industry is the same as investment to any other industries, it helps boost the economy. Two of the results are; a healthier/more productive work force and more income for those who work in the health industry.

    Now, we can have a great debate about how the govt would fund the project and will it be too expensive etc. Well i can only say that all other develop countries can afford some sort of public health care system, i cant see why US cant afford it. Perhaps Americans should eat less jumbo hamburgers after all.

  6. #23
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    However, its a fact that the cost of health care is going up. Its a matter of how fast it grows. Recently I went for a consultation on a simple procedure. It cost me $4000 for a 5 minutes procedure. I almost fall off my chair and I felt like slapping the consultant for thinking I am an idiot. This is not life threatening procedure. In Malaysia, it can be done with a fraction of the cost.

    So USA is not alone in this. Its the people who consults. They are like leaches. Something have to be done to manage this. Their life is over fed. . Its like they are holding patients at their will (or football some says it). The profession is no longer a caring profession. Leaches everywhere. Sorry docs. This is just my observations.

    By the way, I am in singapore. So, my guess on the trend is most, people will move over to Malaysia for medical assistance (if they are smart enough). Some of the hospital in singapore is also moving into Malaysian market. Still the quality may not be that high, but it should be a safe enough for simple procedures which are the majority of it. Only those unfortunate and not aware of such opportunities will have to pay higher cost in singapore. Still due to the quality, rich people from indonesia and other developing countries are flying into singapore for more critical operations. So, its a business.
    Last edited by extremenanopowe; 03-23-2010 at 10:02 AM.

  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    The following statistics reveal the depth of despair about the current American healthcare system.

    -Life expectancy of Americans is 77 years of age, the UK 79, Germany 79, Japan 82, and Hong Kong 82.3.

    Maybe Americans have more disposable income, so they drink, smoke and do more crazy things.

    -Infant mortality rate in the US is 6.8 per 1,000 live births. In the UK it is 5.1; Germany 3.9. Japan 2.8, and Hong Kong 2.9.

    It could be related to inexperienced parenting skills.


    -Percentage of GDP spent on healthcare: US 16%, advanced EU countries around 7% to 10%, Japan 8%, Australia 9%, Hong Kong 5.3%.

    Could it be US spend more $ on research and american doctors are better paid?

    How on earth can America be so inefficient in spending and delivering acceptable healthcare? I will bet my bottom dollar that American healthcare system has had too much of that Wall Street madness in which the poor were regarded as dispensable. That is the reason for such shocking health statistics and at such sky-high costs-the poor were left to die and those that could pay were forced to pay twice or triple the market rate.
    Yes, i don't why either like why people keep flockng to USA and why 11 million illegal immigrants in the US currently demanding US citizenship.

  8. #25
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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35856395...news-americas/

    only when we have free healthcare, free search and rescue, free this and that, Canadians do crazy things. With advance warning of avalanche alert, hundreds still gather for the annual snowmobile fest. I think about 2 doz got killed and injured when the induced avalanche came. Guess what? a couple days later, a bunch of snowmobiliers went back there again and triggered another avalanche. Not sure if there any deaths from the second avalanche.
    Last edited by cooler; 03-23-2010 at 10:16 AM.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    Yes, i don't why either like why people keep flockng to USA and why 11 million illegal immigrants in the US currently demanding US citizenship.
    The reason is economic. Where the border is porous the poor will move from the poor side to the rich side. Never mind the poor healthcare because to them it makes no difference-they did not get any from where they fled from and neither do they get any in the land they have crossed over to.
    But once they get their citizenship, they will get a real bad deal on healthcare, irrespective of whether they are insured or are non-insurable.
    I have an idea that may be worth a second look. Why can't the US outsource some parts of their healthcare services to other more efficient countries? That should reduce costs and increase life expectancy as well as reduce infant mortality rates for the US. However, I suspect the political will is not there. Your congressmen and congresswomen will not allow that.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    As far as I know US is the only develop country that does not have public health care system until yesterday. From humanity point of view its show a lack of caring to the less fortunates. Those millions of American who could not afford health insurance perhaps already tried their best to improve their living standard but at the end of the day were just not so lucky as the rest that they end up too poor to have a health cover.

    As far as economy and money are concern i think the new health care system is not that bad. An injection towards health care industry is the same as investment to any other industries, it helps boost the economy. Two of the results are; a healthier/more productive work force and more income for those who work in the health industry.

    Now, we can have a great debate about how the govt would fund the project and will it be too expensive etc. Well i can only say that all other develop countries can afford some sort of public health care system, i cant see why US cant afford it. Perhaps Americans should eat less jumbo hamburgers after all.
    Hi Y,
    1) Even with this bill passed, we still do not have a public health system. Public option is not in the bill. People do not purchase health insurance because a) pre-existing condition which you ask insurance company to loose major money? no go... b) individuals who can not get into a group. They are lumped into a group of unknown risk. They are inherit higher risk and will be charged higher premium based on their risk. c) people think they are low risk and do not need to pay for the coverage and think even at $75 a month, it is too much. Yet, these are the people who cry and scream the loudest because they will die because they are just too cheap to get the insurance. Unless the law is requiring everyone in US to get insurance, this is a bad law.
    2) Insurance company is good at making money. They will find way to make money given any law. If ins comp cannot make money, they will just not sell the product. Guess what, Those people suppose to get coverage, they will have to go to another company and rate will be higher again. This is not a good law again.
    3) Without a true reform that makes everyone suffer. a) lawyer takes cut in fee and tort reform. b) ins company all regulated by 1 agency c) dr and hospitals all take pay cut in payment of 15~20%. or we go with the Great Canadian system d) drug patten cut to 10 yr. e) Everyone has to wait for 1 month+ for any none life threatening procedure unless you pay cash. you can not slow down the health care cost growth.

    This law does not offer any of the fix. You can not just ask one side to suffer and calling them evil. BO is just bad president.

  11. #28
    Regular Member wilfredlgf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    This law does not offer any of the fix. You can not just ask one side to suffer and calling them evil.
    Pity them as they lament the downturn of fortunes.

    ... while sipping Chardonnay in their swimming pool from Persian glasses served on Armenian silver trays.


  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    Perhaps Americans should eat less jumbo hamburgers after all.
    Hahaha!! ...and less all-you-can-buffet Becoming presidents, tackling debts and deficits are boring, more appealing to leave a so-called legacy of achieving something not done before i.e. universal heathcare. Maybe BO really has good intention to initiate universal healthcare or maybe plain political. I think CTJCAD is not against universal healthcare but how to finance this elephant (when the US is currently operating on borrowed money and facing a huge debt and record deficits) and the delivery system that is actually driving up healthcare costs? How long can US continues business as usual raking deficits after deficits for 30+ consecutive years before the mountain caves in, plunging the world into recession/depression, and that I am really concern being neighbours. Just 2 cents thoughts.

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    The reason is economic. Where the border is porous the poor will move from the poor side to the rich side. Never mind the poor healthcare because to them it makes no difference-they did not get any from where they fled from and neither do they get any in the land they have crossed over to.
    But once they get their citizenship, they will get a real bad deal on healthcare, irrespective of whether they are insured or are non-insurable.
    I have an idea that may be worth a second look. Why can't the US outsource some parts of their healthcare services to other more efficient countries? That should reduce costs and increase life expectancy as well as reduce infant mortality rates for the US. However, I suspect the political will is not there. Your congressmen and congresswomen will not allow that.
    that was discussed in the article i've pasted here.
    Of course outsourcing is a great solution. It is a proven method to reduce costs AND improve quality at the same time. Look at IT, durable good manfacturing, electronics, accounting, engineering and procurement, even foods, are outsourced. Political agenda can be bought and who have the most money? lawyers and doctors comes to mind.

  14. #31
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default This is a lively one...

    ..glad to see a few more varied responses..although at the expense of stealing the thunder out of the other healthcare-related thread..

    - The way i see how the bill was passed and the process of how it was done, it's truly an embarrassment. It's filled with corruption (this bill was the one passed in the Senate, end of the yr) which had a corrupt/bribe deal with Sen. Ben Nelson (and he is now planning to vote NO on the final debate, what a jerk!). This is a one-sided policy and the Congress approved it??? I don't ever recall a bill, of this proportional magnitude, ever having to pass Congress without having support from both sides of the aisles (both parties). Even the controversial Social Security Act in the 1930s (and then Medicare) was passed with support from both Democrats and Republicans. That is a good way to solve an issue. Not with this.
    - Prez BO mentioned this bill has the support from the American follks? Not even close. The majority of the population doesn't like this bill (more than 80%). The ones who are jumping up and down with this bill passage are probably 1 or 2 lazy millions who will finally get to have a health insurance. While the rest of the working population has to pay for them. Even the Iraq war, which a lot of liberals, anti-wars, Dems are against (and always blame Prez W), was supported by this same lying Democrats (close to 100 of them). And to make it worse, Princess Pelosi, of all people, even knew abt the intelligence and admitted S.H. had WMD. Yet, now, she discredits what she knew. So, blame everything on Prez W, but the matter is, that war was also supported by this same party who passed this really bad HC bill.
    - The passage of this bill will be the largest expansion of tax ever for the U.S.
    - This bill only satisfies the far left of the political spectrum. Prez BO had to do this, no matter at what cost and at the consequences. Political expediency on his part. Democracy, one asks?..not even close. Just a bunch of behind closed door & under-the-table dealings..Where's the transparency??..
    - In a way, i sort of blame the Republican party for botching this & allowing this to happen. They had control of the Congress but then allowed Princess Pelosi to take over the rein and now we have this bill. But, i guess, this is all destined to be.*sigh*
    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    What a load of rubbish this thread title "The sky has finally fallen" seems to imply. First the sky has not fallen at all. If any thing it has given to a new dawn. Whatever happens from now cannot do anything worse than what is happening now. How can anything get worse?
    The current health care system in the US is an embarrasment to the US. It is driven by market forces, a Siamese twin of Wall Street. You know what happened to Wall Street.
    How can Americans spend so much on health care and yet die younger than citizens of other developed countries? There are countries that live healthier and longer and at cheaper costs than the US and yet have more universal coverage for everyone.
    There are something in life that every human being is entitled to. It shouldn't be money driven.
    - Thank you for your interest; you're free to express your opinion (i know you prefer this instead of the "S'pore Also Can" thread)...and btw, may you please read the first sentence of the 1st post..
    It won't get any worse? I hope that's not sarcasm. Unfortunately, my friend, things are not gonna be the same. Everything will get worse. U.S. will become mediocre. And the cost to sustain this will keep on rising. Yes, my friend, that's what you're gonna see and this bill won't fix it.
    - The system needs fixing. No doubt. But it's the approach of how to fix it that is the key. Govt. or universal health care is not the way.
    - There are something in life that the U.S. system offers that is not found on any other country on this planet: individual freedom, at least when it comes to health care. To choose or not choose what you want to get without getting penalized by the govt. You take that away, and where can one go to use his or her freedom to choose? USSR? China? HK? Aussie? Canada? UK? M'sia? S'pore?
    How about if those living in the U.S., who like universal health care move to those countries which offer universal health care and donate their
    money for the taxes..
    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    The following statistics reveal the depth of despair about the current American healthcare system.

    -Life expectancy of Americans is 77 years of age, the UK 79, Germany 79, Japan 82, and Hong Kong 82.3.
    -Infant mortality rate in the US is 6.8 per 1,000 live births. In the UK it is 5.1; Germany 3.9. Japan 2.8, and Hong Kong 2.9.
    -Percentage of GDP spent on healthcare: US 16%, advanced EU countries around 7% to 10%, Japan 8%, Australia 9%, Hong Kong 5.3%.

    How on earth can America be so inefficient in spending and delivering acceptable healthcare? I will bet my bottom dollar that American healthcare system has had too much of that Wall Street madness in which the poor were regarded as dispensable. That is the reason for such shocking health statistics and at such sky-high costs-the poor were left to die and those that could pay were forced to pay twice or triple the market rate.
    - There is another study (if not mistaken by the U.N.), that shows the U.S. rate of survival in other critical type of health illnesses is way higher than the other industrialized nations. Your stats above have already been known and used a lot and don't paint the general picture of what's going on.
    - I know Prez BO and those who are in support of this have been demonizing the health insurance companies as the cause of rising health care cost. In reality, despite their high premium cost, the insurance companies have done their job in saving lives and in reality, they only profit very little.

    Now, the govt. takes over over, theoretically, and i'm almost willing to bet things are gonna get worse, even more costly and there will be so much bureaucratic process that even poor people are not gonna get the necessary care they need.
    Do you really think the U.S. govt. can do a better job w/this big govt. program?? Not with their history of bankrupting the other social programs.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-23-2010 at 02:04 PM.

  15. #32
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    [quote=ctjcad;1401312 re for #31 which I will not copy over...Take a peek at Canada's universal health care cost if US needs a reference check...not that I am complaining since all Canadian citizens and myself are using it...but if the delivery cost is not carefully managed, it cannot be sustained.
    I read that when BO 4-yr term expires, US debt servicing alone hits US$800billion annually, I gets a headache counting the zeroes in that number. CHN and Japan hold the most US debt, so say, US$80B goes to CHN annually. How much does an oil company cost, a skyscaper costs,...? CHN could buy US assets a few a year, economically control US...to me, that is a serious threat to US security. I know, I am preaching gloom and doom here and the sky will not fall, haven't yet.

  16. #33
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    As far as I know US is the only develop country that does not have public health care system until yesterday. From humanity point of view its show a lack of caring to the less fortunates. Those millions of American who could not afford health insurance perhaps already tried their best to improve their living standard but at the end of the day were just not so lucky as the rest that they end up too poor to have a health cover.

    As far as economy and money are concern i think the new health care system is not that bad. An injection towards health care industry is the same as investment to any other industries, it helps boost the economy. Two of the results are; a healthier/more productive work force and more income for those who work in the health industry.

    Now, we can have a great debate about how the govt would fund the project and will it be too expensive etc. Well i can only say that all other develop countries can afford some sort of public health care system, i cant see why US cant afford it. Perhaps Americans should eat less jumbo hamburgers after all.
    ..thank you for your input:
    - Yes, i know you've been living in great Australia with its "socialized" UK health care system. But the U.S. is different because it offers individual freedom to choose or not to choose a healthcare plan without getting penalty. Now, with this law, young folks, kids, students will have to get a health insurance or pay fine to the govt. What happened to individual freedom? (i know the insurance companies are happy because they will get more customers).
    Humanity point of view that shows U.S. lack of caring to less fortunates? Are you kidding me? Not too brag or anything, but the U.S. has been the only nation in the world that has done more to humanity than any other country in history (at least in the last 100 yrs.). Look at how many millions of donations to worldwide catastrophes have been poured in?
    In terms of lacking care for its own people in the U.S., all i can say is, there are millions of lazy people who don't want to work and only cling on govt. for help like leeches. If they get a job or education to improve their condition, they won't be poor and they'll afford a healthcare. And these are the ones who are in joy with this bill passage. Tell me, are you okay with that?
    But you have to understand, the rising cost is the cancer (no pun intended in this healthcare talk) and will not be fixed with this bill. And worse, premium will stay high if not go higher. This is basically more govt. subsidy. Just a pseudo-patch fix, just like master silentheart already mentioned.
    - Economy wise, it's a wait and see approach. But as i already mentioned, this is another tax expansion on the country (the biggest one ever recorded in the history) and in the long run, the U.S. will be even broker (if that's even a word). And what does that mean with having more tax? Standard of living will be lower, healthcare quality will be mediocre, more govt. intrusion. More jobs? Business who will basically fund all of this (and the healthcare industry) will feel the pinch by paying even more tax.
    - As for the last point: Basically it comes down to you have a choice of a universal healthcare for everyone with mediocre care (like in your great country of Aussie). Or, have a private/free market system (in the U.S.) which allows people to choose or not choose whatever plans they want without getting another shaft from the govt. Who will who knows, botch up your money. Study the Social Securiy and Medicare govt. programs nightmare in the U.S. (see how bankrupt or going to be soon).

    Tell me, which one you prefer? Having the govt. take and control more of your money and decide your healthcare OR you control more and decide for yourself what to do with your money for your healthcare?..if you choose the 2nd one, then i'm sorry, there will be no more of that in the U.S...
    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-23-2010 at 02:36 PM.

  17. #34
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    (snipped rest of master silentheart post)...This law does not offer any of the fix. You can not just ask one side to suffer and calling them evil. BO is just bad president.
    - Good sum up. For those who think this fixes the U.S. healthcare problem>mainly cost control, sorry, NO, it won't....in the next generation, people will look back at this decision and wonder "Are they socialists disguised as Americans?"..
    - Nothing but a political expediency on his part. Only to look good and leave a name for himself (only for himself, screw the rest of the people who elected him). Doing it Chicago style politics. What else is new. What a shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by wilfredlgf View Post
    Pity them as they lament the downturn of fortunes.

    ... while sipping Chardonnay in their swimming pool from Persian glasses served on Armenian silver trays.

    ..yeah, and the insurance companies bosses will be partying even more with this passage as more and more people will be "forced" to get a health insurance. See who's laughing now if not those who are swimming in the pool and those who will be joining them who are the ones who voted for this??..
    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    Yes, i don't why either like why people keep flockng to USA and why 11 million illegal immigrants in the US currently demanding US citizenship.
    ..the immigration reform is up next on Prez BO & his selected few Dems socialist agenda..
    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    Hahaha!! ...and less all-you-can-buffet Becoming presidents, tackling debts and deficits are boring, more appealing to leave a so-called legacy of achieving something not done before i.e. universal heathcare. Maybe BO really has good intention to initiate universal healthcare or maybe plain political. I think CTJCAD is not against universal healthcare but how to finance this elephant (when the US is currently operating on borrowed money and facing a huge debt and record deficits) and the delivery system that is actually driving up healthcare costs? How long can US continues business as usual raking deficits after deficits for 30+ consecutive years before the mountain caves in, plunging the world into recession/depression, and that I am really concern being neighbours. Just 2 cents thoughts.
    ..as i and a few others already mentioned, cost has been, is and will be the problem. And it still won't be fixed. For the short term, maybe we'll see some improvement, but in the long term....................oh my double cheeseburger?!?!..
    Future generations will take the brunt of this and if anyone has compassion for the children, they'll understand.

    One more thing to share:
    I met a couple of friends who came from the great Netherlands this past December and they all laughed, shook their heads and asked me "Are you serious? Is BO really going to bring in universal healthcare to the U.S.? Do you know how bad it is as we've seen the effects in Netherlands" All i did was nod and said "Yep"....

    I usually don't like to make a prediction, but if one asks me what i think about the long term effect of this HC bill, i feel, in the long run this will bankrupt the country even more and the system will be broke and U.S. will owe even more (fits perfectly with his name Broke OWEbama). Unless, we get a Prez who'll really take advantage and unleash the U.S.' abundant natural resources and not rely on foreign oil to finance this big entitlement (i'm sure master silentheart knows). Why, because as more and more people get comfortable with receiving govt. subsidized health care/insurance (yes, people like free stuff), those people will get comfortable and won't want to change. Pretty soon, if the demand is way too high, where will the money come from to sustain it??.....Just take a look at Medicare, Social Security...

    Anyway, it is what it is and we just have to deal with is (or change it through amendments which is still possible with future Congress)...i just know the almighty one up there is in control..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-23-2010 at 03:07 PM.

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    By denniscool in forum Introduction
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    : 07-25-2007, 05:16 AM

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