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  1. #103
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    which all lead to one ending, implosion, like a supernova

  2. #104
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    This is what will happen.
    The smart people will let the insurance expire.
    Pay the dumb fine to obama which is only < 1/5th the costs of insurance.
    Save $$$ in paying only the healthcare u really need, which can be negotiated with the doctors. If by chance of bad luck u get HIV, cancer or suffer big injury from auto accident, just buy insurance at that point Obamacare can't deny u on the pre-existing condition. Insurance companies go bankrupt. Don't worry, Obamacare will backstop these

    If you have any belief whatsoever in the efficient market hypothesis this is exactly what people will do as the effective dates for these provisions approach, as it will save them ten thousand dollars a year or more - each. The insurance companies will instantaneously lose the "pool" of healthy people who buy against risk - rather, they will have a pool of all sick people who buy against known costs.

    meanwhile, continue to enjoy these foods
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...t-food-meals/#
    Last edited by cooler; 03-30-2010 at 12:03 PM.

  3. #105
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    I agree with Master Cooler's post #104. 1 Additional point. Initially, only smart and unethical people will do so. Give it a year or 2, all the smart and ethical people will do so. After 3 years, most of the regular people will figure out and start to do so. Give and take about 5 years, only people who is in the program is either sick and need a lot of care or just too ethical and decided not to do it. After 7 years, the truly ethical people will be all bankrupted and only people in the plan is the sick and dying...
    I give it 8 years before this bad bill to fail.

  4. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    Other than promoting to spend more on Medicare in all your posts, you offer no idea of what to cut back, so, you advocating to speed up US spending is to see USA decline...your wish will come true as Prez after Prez have robbed USA of her econmic might and reducing the 'golden mountain' era of USA fast becoming a rubble of dust...you are such a strong advocate of free Medicare in US and western countris, so what have HK and CHN offer in free Medicare, after all these 2 countries have vast foreign reserves and surpluses every year?
    In fact, I do agree with Tanepak. America will decline. With the financial crisis, it did speed things up somewhat and that is with the mandate of the American people. Rather ironic.

    Do you believe that people with better health are more productive? That is what many governments believe and therefore improving the health of the nation leads to positive economic benefits.

    HK has a free public healthcare system that accounts for more than 95% of the healthcare. Yes, it isn't sustainable. Consultations with the public endorse individuals purchasing private insurance. I think the HK government preferred medical savings account but many people spoke out otherwise.

    China, well, it's not that great. Only 20 years ago it had terrible infrastructure but a very cheap healthcare system that was cheap but tried to provide healthcare around the country. Unfortunately, in push towards economic growth, healthcare got a bit forgotten and became pretty much totally private with abnormal incentives. Perhaps getting similar to the US situation. China is now going towards social insurance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy
    The US is in the current position because it has neglected the health issue for so long. Now when Pres OB tried to correct it, guess what? Its too expensive and cant afford it? What a lame excuses. For so long Americans have let their countrymen died without proper help, for the benefit of who?? For the benefit of all who did not have to pay extra tax on health and hence can have more money to buy extra bugers.
    Have to agree here. If not now, then when?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy
    As mentioned before, there is not much point we're now debating about the merit of the new health bill now. It has passed the house, so implementations are on its way. If most Americans dont agree with this bill, then just dont vote for BO on the next election. But my prediction; BO will be re-elected for the second term and health care bill will stay for good.
    This is a very important point. The Americans voted by a majority for the president a for 4 year term he can also be voted out. Therefore, he has the mandate to make decision for the country. To enhance the decision process, the bill is debated and voted for or against. That's a better choice than either China or Hong Kong where there is no voting for a government.

  5. #107
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    PS, let's make fun of the GOP's latest SM (s)trip...

  6. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart View Post
    I agree with Master Cooler's post #104. 1 Additional point. Initially, only smart and unethical people will do so. Give it a year or 2, all the smart and ethical people will do so. After 3 years, most of the regular people will figure out and start to do so. Give and take about 5 years, only people who is in the program is either sick and need a lot of care or just too ethical and decided not to do it. After 7 years, the truly ethical people will be all bankrupted and only people in the plan is the sick and dying...
    I give it 8 years before this bad bill to fail.
    I shall be watching with great interest. Even smarter would be those people moving to Asia where the growth is.

  7. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    I shall be watching with great interest. Even smarter would be those people moving to Asia where the growth is.
    Follow the money???

  8. #110
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    Anyway, here is our Robbing Hood VP on the subject of money. That is a lot of incentive for people to work hard...
    http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/joe-biden-on-taxes-you-call-it-%22redistribution-of-wealth%22-i-call-it-%22just-being-fair%22-455245.html?tickers=^DJI,^GSPC,HRB,INTU,^IXIC,XHB, XLE

  9. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    The US is in the current position because it has neglected the health issue for so long. Now when Pres OB tried to correct it, guess what? Its too expensive and cant afford it? What a lame excuses. For so long Americans have let their countrymen died without proper help, for the benefit of who?? For the benefit of all who did not have to pay extra tax on health and hence can have more money to buy extra bugers.

    Im getting a bit sick reading all these, for those who oppose to the new health bill, when do you think US deficit will be small enough for you to think that its affordable to have a public health care? 100 years?? C'mon just be honest, you just dont want to pay more on tax, do you? Even if its to save the lifes of your neighbour.

    On health insurance companies that charge sky high rocketed prices and blame it on the cost required to pay hospitals and doctors, please dont tell me tens of billions have been recorded at your P/L report. While others went bankrupt you guys went sailing. Do i sound like a leftist? I hope not, but this is what happend if you dont have a sound public health system (just like all other developed countries have) in place. What a waste!!

    As mentioned before, there is not much point we're now debating about the merit of the new health bill now. It has passed the house, so implementations are on its way. If most Americans dont agree with this bill, then just dont vote for BO on the next election. But my prediction; BO will be re-elected for the second term and health care bill will stay for good.
    Yoppy, Epak and Cheung:
    Firstly, I ain't American, I am Canadian and we have universal healthcare. Read my posts, I did not say no to healthcare and I did say I am glad Canada got it but it is not sustainable. I did say the less fortunate should have it too.
    I did say with the current record US deficit and debt (I did say will never pay off with consecutive 30+ years deficit with nobody has any plan to even stop the bleeding, you can forget paying down), adding more spending (healthcare or any other wish list) without cutting from the current budget is fool's dream. Deficit financing, that is what BO is doing to finance health care is not sustainable unless BO cut something big from the budget, otherwise, the debt will balloon kill everything including healthcare.
    The right to live, wealth without health, helping the less fortunate, I could not agree with you trio any less, I wholeheartedly agree and if I got free Medicare why not others, but what BO is doing in increasing the deficit and debt for the whole 4 year term is not going to sustain healthcare and if the debt past the point of no return, the debt will sucked up everything in its wake, nothing left unless Epak is looking forward to the economic demise of USA. So, agree healthcare stays (it got passed and majority/democracy rule anyway), now what to cut (withdraw from the war???) to produce a balance act and BO is not doing that. That is what I am saying...read slowly
    Yoppy, US does not need to wait 100 years (see your post above), just 10 more years of record US$1.6T deficit (BO projects deficit throughout his 1st term) and USA will follow Greece but unlike Greece which may have Germany to back her up, nobody will be there for USA. I did say I worry for Canada..as for the USA, I did say I am like Epak, I give a flying leap.
    Last edited by OneToughBirdie; 03-30-2010 at 03:09 PM.

  10. #112
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    Is any work better than no work? Not for unemployment benefits.
    By Ron Scherer Ron Scherer Mon Mar 29, 6:28 pm ET
    New York – Roberta Hanson of North Haven, Conn., had been searching for work for 22 months when she landed a part-time job weekend afternoons and nights for a nearby municipal parks and recreation department.

    But now Ms. Hanson rues the day she took that work. Why? The Connecticut Department of Labor used her negligible earnings in her part-time job as the new baseline for Hanson's unemployment benefits. She went from receiving $483 a week to getting nothing.

    "Afterwards, unofficially, they said I shouldn’t have taken the job," Hanson says.

    It's a twist in the law that may affect thousands of other workers, given that the ranks of the long-term unemployed are now so high. Many people who have been out of work for a year are picking up work as temps or part-timers, unaware that state agencies will recalculate their unemployment benefits after a year – and use their most recent work history and pay level to do it.

    "What is going on for these workers is that because their most recent wages are much lower than the wages they earned in their prior full-time job, they are facing substantial cuts in their weekly unemployment benefits," says George Wentworth, a consultant at the National Employment Law Project (NELP) in New York.

    Benefits recalculated after a year

    Most of the people caught in this snag are on Emergency Unemployment Compensation (EUC), a federal program to help those who have exhausted their state benefits. However, after workers have been jobless for 52 weeks, states are required to check to see if a worker has requalified for state benefits. If someone is eligible for state benefits – no matter how small – federal law requires that he or she stop collecting EUC and go back onto state benefits. The states, many with unemployment pools that are borrowing from the federal government, are dramatically reducing the amount paid out to individuals.

    Mr. Wentworth cites the example of a Massachusetts woman who had been getting $540 a week in unemployment benefits and, when returned to state benefits, saw her weekly benefit cut to $103. To make matters worse, her husband, also unemployed, saw his benefit drop from $600 a week to $199 a week. Each cut came as a result of having taken a short-term job.

    Hanson’s situation is even worse. Connecticut's formula for parttime workers is to take two-thirds of their gross salary (in her case $130 a week, which is $87) and subtract that amount from $39, which would be her weekly benefit based on the parttime job. This gives her a negative $48, or no benefit at all.

    “Something is wrong,” Hanson says. “I am allowed to get nothing!”

    Temp jobs on the rise

    The potential reduction in benefits for parttimers and temps comes as temp services are starting to hire more workers because businesses don’t want to add fulltimers until they're sure the economic recovery is permanent. In February, temporary help services added 48,000 jobs, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics reported. Since September, jobs at temp services have risen by 284,000.

    In the 1990s, the last time America saw high long-term unemployment among a sizable share of its work force, Congress changed the law to prevent the unemployed from being penalized for taking up parttime work. However, that change expired.

    Now, Sen. Jack Reed (D) of Rhode Island is sponsoring legislation to accomplish the same thing today. Senator Reed attached his proposal to a bill that extended several tax provisions, plus farm disaster assistance, unemployment benefits, and COBRA health benefits.

    “We need to incentivize people to find work, not unfairly punish folks who were able to find short-term, temporary employment,” said Reed in a statement.

    However, the legislative package, which passed the Senate on March 10, is in limbo because the House version is different.

    Reed argues that his change could potentially help states, because the long-term unemployed would receive benefits from the US Treasury. Many state unemployment funds are now insolvent and have had to borrow from the US government.

    It could also help people like Hanson, who worked for 28 years for a Connecticut social services program that was eliminated. She is trying to support her elderly father as well as herself on her parttime job, credit cards, and Social Security. “I have written everyone from President Obama – from whom I [have] heard nothing back – to my local representative [in Congress], Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D), who is very supportive,” she says.

  11. #113
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    It is good that some Americans wake up to what the rest of the world thinks about the controversy about the health care bill. French president Sarkozy says it well : http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._03/023111.php
    It seems that some powerful Americans are quite heartless. We are beginning to see early signs of the coming collapse of an empire.

  12. #114
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    I don't think anyone here is not agreeing with you on passing this bill. Just how to pay for this bill and to sustain it from hereon without consecutive 30+ years of deficit financing i.e. in case you or Sarkozy pretend not to know or being hypocritical, borrow money to pay for it and not cutting any other programs, that is the problem. For every $1 borrow this year, this $1 incur interest which in turn eat into next year's budget. But the problem is USA has a trillion $ deficit. You just want to play your health card and blindside this deficit cos' you know there is no way this bill can be sustained. As you honestly admit, you glee over the economic demise of the US.
    You and Yoppy have been playing this health card but you should ask your hero BO to show the Americans the money to pay for it. Deficit financing is a fantasy, fools dream and there is no way for any country in this world to pay for ANYTHING when their current revenues cannot support it. In case you conveniently forget, there is 30+ years of deficit pile up and you don't have to predict and glee over USA collapse, it will happen. Just that BO has a vision without a plan, that expediates the collapse. You and that Yoppy guy never talk about financing and how to pay, just spend. On the record, I support universal healthcare, just show us the money path. Very simple

  13. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    It is good that some Americans wake up to what the rest of the world thinks about the controversy about the health care bill. French president Sarkozy says it well : http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._03/023111.php
    It seems that some powerful Americans are quite heartless. We are beginning to see early signs of the coming collapse of an empire.
    i wouldn't jump to that extreme. If US is going to the toilet, china gets the flush with it too coz they hold so many US's IOUs. You see, if i owe china $10k, i'm in trouble, if i owe china trillions, china is in trouble LOL. Yes, sky is falling but most of us still survive coz we will just stay indoor(cocooning)
    Last edited by cooler; 03-30-2010 at 08:59 PM.

  14. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    It is good that some Americans wake up to what the rest of the world thinks about the controversy about the health care bill. French president Sarkozy says it well : http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._03/023111.php
    It seems that some powerful Americans are quite heartless. We are beginning to see early signs of the coming collapse of an empire.
    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    i wouldn't jump to that extreme. If US is going to the toilet, china gets the flush with it too coz they hold so many US's IOUs. You see, if i owe china $10k, i'm in trouble, if i owe china trillions, china is in trouble LOL. Yes, sky is falling but most of us still survive coz we will just stay indoor(cocooning)
    Of course the shift from the West to the East has already started. It is a process and will take a few decades, just like the slow decay of the British Empire. BTW, let me remind you that America was a colony of the British.
    The turning point will come when China's total GDP overtakes the US's. At that point it will be meaningless for the US to keep printing their dollars and ask the world to use it as a global currency. Once the US dollar is no longer a global currency then the fall will be sharp. Hopefully, long before that something is worked out for a soft landing.
    China is compelled to pump money into the US economy for its own survival too. It doesn't want a world economic power like the US to go under and bring everyone down.
    The world has changed now. At the bottom rung we now worry about failed states among the many poor countries. At the top the most powerful countries are so interdependent that each will come to the aid of the other to prevent a global collapse.

  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    I don't think anyone here is not agreeing with you on passing this bill. Just how to pay for this bill and to sustain it from hereon without consecutive 30+ years of deficit financing i.e. in case you or Sarkozy pretend not to know or being hypocritical, borrow money to pay for it and not cutting any other programs, that is the problem. For every $1 borrow this year, this $1 incur interest which in turn eat into next year's budget. But the problem is USA has a trillion $ deficit. You just want to play your health card and blindside this deficit cos' you know there is no way this bill can be sustained. As you honestly admit, you glee over the economic demise of the US.
    You and Yoppy have been playing this health card but you should ask your hero BO to show the Americans the money to pay for it. Deficit financing is a fantasy, fools dream and there is no way for any country in this world to pay for ANYTHING when their current revenues cannot support it. In case you conveniently forget, there is 30+ years of deficit pile up and you don't have to predict and glee over USA collapse, it will happen. Just that BO has a vision without a plan, that expediates the collapse. You and that Yoppy guy never talk about financing and how to pay, just spend. On the record, I support universal healthcare, just show us the money path. Very simple
    I presume when you talk about deficit financing you are talking about the US budget. Deficit budgets can be either good or bad, depending on the circumstances and a country's economic power.
    Countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy have never been known to be good economic performers but good in spending beyond their means for political reason. Such countries are not good candidates for deficit financing.
    However, if a country like a businessman or entrepreneur, has a negative cash flow, meaning its expenditures are higher than its income/receipts, we need to find out the components of the deficit. For an entrepreuner he may have incurred a bank loan for a business venture that will bring in a stream of good income over the future years, and the loan is substantial enough to cause the deficit, then this is not a problem. The same with states that are good economic performers. Such highly rated states can and do go into deficit financing to reflate an economy and bring it back to health.
    It will be a crime if America did not take such huge steps reflating the ailing economy that nearly tanked America last year.
    BTW, only foot soldiers earn their monthly salary and spend within the limits of their salary. Such foot soldiers make up the majority of the population. The entrepreuners are the movers and shakers who take risks in borrowings and loans to start up enterprises that drive an economy. To such movers and shakers deficit financing is necessary. Do you know why there are banks and stock markets? Without them, we will be still in the barter trade days of old.

  16. #118
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    Default Is there still a belief that the just passed HC bill is really about healthcare??...

    ..(i feel so bad about the neglected "What don't you like about your healthcare?" thread)..anyway..
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    So Chris, how you think the health care reform should look like? If you dont have an alternative you will sound like tipping towards $$$ than lives. At the moment you are only outlining the negative impact of the new bill without giving any alternative solution as to how should your pres should deliver. What is the "right way"?
    ...
    Dear Yoppy,
    I know you’re a bit of a late comer to this discussion, but we’ve already discussed about the “right” alternative approach to somehow solve this healthcare issue in the “What don’t you like about your healthcare?” thread. Please give some time and read those posts. I’ll give you a clue on which posts you should read from to find the "right way": master silentheart, master cooler and I gave a few ideas. Also, Cheung and OTB mentioned one of the problems to the high cost of healthcare in the U.S., earlier in this thread.

    Basically, those of us, who prefer those options, understand there’s no magic solution. However, those “right” alternative approaches tend to focus more on the cost factor (which are the free-market & cost saving approach), which imo, is much2 more important. After all, the ones who’ve been supporting, thumping their support of the new bill want to solve the cost issue. Yet, even with this bill, there’s still no solution to that cost problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Let me ask all Americans here : are you prepared to have a look at other developed countries' health care system and learn something about them?
    Two very vital life and death items are costs and quality of life like life expectancy and infant mortality, and these are what shame America now.
    ..do you really believe this is really about health and care??..
    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    The Congressional Budget Office says the new health care bill would cut the federal deficit by US$138 billion in the next decade and reduce the shortfall further in the next 10 years.
    Opponents of the bill disagree. However, being in the opposition with no stewardship responsibilty all their talk carries no real weight. With a 2-party system, when one party sees white the other party automatically sees black. They are like 2 big gangs, forever fighting over turf.
    Let us see if the governing party can reduce the deficit the new bill promises.
    It is premature to say otherwise.
    ..you can believe that report all you want.
    But CBO can manipulate any number and data. Proofs are already in the pudding. Just read the news link i posted earlier about the mess Taxachusetts (Massachusetts) is having with their Romneycare (which this just passed HC bill was pretty much based on). They are in the red!
    Check out the video below to see how accurate CBO prediction is with the last healthcare bill. It just shows both parties want to "fix" the healthcare system, but in reality, it's not possible:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZEVBogXFFg
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    ...Free, yes. Equal? .....
    ..equal in what? in having the same health care coverage???...
    Yeah, tell that to all the lawmakers who wrote this bill and who are exempt from this health care law.
    Equal???..
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    The US is in the current position because it has neglected the health issue for so long. Now when Pres OB tried to correct it, guess what? Its too expensive and cant afford it? What a lame excuses. For so long Americans have let their countrymen died without proper help, for the benefit of who?? For the benefit of all who did not have to pay extra tax on health and hence can have more money to buy extra bugers.

    Im getting a bit sick reading all these, for those who oppose to the new health bill, when do you think US deficit will be small enough for you to think that its affordable to have a public health care? 100 years?? C'mon just be honest, you just dont want to pay more on tax, do you? Even if its to save the lifes of your neighbour.

    On health insurance companies that charge sky high rocketed prices and blame it on the cost required to pay hospitals and doctors, please dont tell me tens of billions have been recorded at your P/L report. While others went bankrupt you guys went sailing. Do i sound like a leftist? I hope not, but this is what happend if you dont have a sound public health system (just like all other developed countries have) in place. What a waste!!

    As mentioned before, there is not much point we're now debating about the merit of the new health bill now. It has passed the house, so implementations are on its way. If most Americans dont agree with this bill, then just dont vote for BO on the next election. But my prediction; BO will be re-elected for the second term and health care bill will stay for good.
    - Do you really trust the govt. to fix health care? When was the last time the govt., esp. U.S., didn't mess up their budget and incur more debt?

    - U.S. already has public health care: Medicare and Medicaid. But not many want them. About tax, how about no more tax to the people? That way, the people will keep their money and they can go out and buy their health insurance.

    - Problem with a public health system are it's not sustainable and the quality won't be the same. For basic service, sure, it's still possible; but how about the major procedures?

    - If you don't know, and like i've mentioned before, the just passed HC bill was passed through such a corrupt process. It's simply a political stunt by Prez BO (just to show that he'll get this through, at no matter what cost, for his own persona).
    As for BO's chance to get re-elected, it will most likely hinge on the economy of the U.S. at that time. Most economists and experts feel the U.S. economy will slough along til at least 2012 or beyond.
    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    hey chris, are u making a run at my post count
    ..i'm not making @ you but at george@chongwei...
    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    the big pharma is definitely supporter of obama's health bill, they stand to gain 32 million mew patients taking pills and drugs, a new untap market the size of whole canada.
    ...
    ..not only them, the big insurance companies are benefitting them also. So, is there really much difference from before??..
    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    ... BTW, let me remind you that America was a colony of the British.
    ...
    ..so?..those colonies revolted and kicked the Brits and their laws back.
    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    ...Let me take you on a history tour.
    The British had their Empire and were successful too, that is for as long as they could get get more economic benefits than outlays from the colonies occupied. This is called self-financing plus a little left over for the Crown. But that all changed when the colonies became self-independent. Without those bounties to support its 'the sun never sets' empire, the British empire collapsed but it managed the decline gracefully.
    ...
    Hong Kong health care is the least of our worries. We are blessed with
    good management that we can afford almost universal health care for a song, without any sales tax, profits tax, dividends tax, capital gains tax, death duty tax, this tax, that tax; and btw very few people in Hong Kong pay any income tax.
    How do we do it? Simple, just be more productive.
    - History? Fall of the British Empire? Remember the Roman Empire?
    Guess how all the great empires fell? The answer is a three letter word, starts with T and ends with X. The bigger the government is, the bigger the fall. And guess which party loves to use that 3 letter word, and loves to spend & just passed this HC bill.
    Here, watch and you guys might learn something from this video. Yes, Yoppy and Cheung also.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE
    - HK, S'pore can afford so because they have a small population.

    *OTB, Mr. t sounds like he's being sarcastic. Or maybe, like you mentioned, he really wants to see the demise of the U.S., "the last best hope of man on Earth".
    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-31-2010 at 05:03 AM.

  17. #119
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default How many people in the U.S. are really uninsured??..

    ..are there really 32+mil or 40+mil as suggested by the govt.??..and will those 32+mil or 40+ mil people get the healthcare coverage they need?..is it just an exaggeration or smokescreen by the politicians or reformers to pass a socialized healthcare financing?..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKCWbq18bNk

    ..and just for a tease, this is what happens when govt. gets in the way of health care:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPC6CqAFA4E
    Last edited by ctjcad; 03-31-2010 at 06:01 AM.

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