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  1. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    To be honest, we don't think of profit.

    We think of a venue that we can call our own home ground.

    The owners of the venue will be all our association members. It is not a business plan. It is only a community project.

    It is like building a house for us to live in; not like building a house for business.
    .
    I knew that I didn't say it right. I don't mean for business.

    I meant to say the membership fee, coaching fee should be enough to pay the rent for the community, if others are able to make a profit.

  2. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    To be honest, we don't think of profit.
    .
    Then, would this be even easier if you don't need to make profit?

  3. #20
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default For a community service, we wish for a 'break-even' project

    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post

    Then, would this be even easier if you don't need to make profit?

    .
    For a business entity, it's the profit that is important. It's generating income from the activity.

    For a community service, we wish for a 'break-even' project. Otherwise members of the community could find themselves forking out money for a service that is not appreciated.
    .

  4. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan888 View Post
    Sorry if I am stating the obvious here. All of clubs here are converted from old warehouses and on lease. So, the club owners do not actually build the building, thus lower the start-up cost. With the membership fee, entrance fee, pro-shop, lessons, etc., the clubs owners are able to turn a profit (otherwise, there wouldn't be that many clubs).

    With $300k, plus enough members, plus some fine coaches, I guess you should be able to pull it off.
    Like chris said they are looking for some suitable land or existing building to buy outright & build/convert into a badminton (& probably other sports) community hall. The members will own the club & pay a membership fee every year to cover the costs. It is a good idea providing they have the funds to start it.

    If they just rent it and convert they put a similar level of money in to convert, pay what is likely to be a punitive rent, which means their memberships fees would be higher & they could get evicted if landlord does not sign a new lease.

    In the long term the private clubs in the UK are a lot cheaper, and gernally have better facilities (as they invest in their own club, rather than penny pinching and not investing) than commercial sports halls/leisure centres.

    It also means the community can use it whenever they want, tournaments when organised will be cheaper & easier to accomadate. It makes total sense as long as you have the people willing to devote their time to get it started and money of course.

  5. #22
    Regular Member ants's Avatar
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    Nice place. Mat flooring over wood. Nice.

  6. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    Like chris said they are looking for some suitable land or existing building to buy outright & build/convert into a badminton (& probably other sports) community hall. The members will own the club & pay a membership fee every year to cover the costs. It is a good idea providing they have the funds to start it.

    If they just rent it and convert they put a similar level of money in to convert, pay what is likely to be a punitive rent, which means their memberships fees would be higher & they could get evicted if landlord does not sign a new lease.

    In the long term the private clubs in the UK are a lot cheaper, and gernally have better facilities (as they invest in their own club, rather than penny pinching and not investing) than commercial sports halls/leisure centres.

    It also means the community can use it whenever they want, tournaments when organised will be cheaper & easier to accomadate. It makes total sense as long as you have the people willing to devote their time to get it started and money of course.
    I'm still not getting it, esp. I thought Chris mentioned that it's taken them a long long time to come up with $300K, and they're still short. I guess it all depends on how much more is needed (thus projected feasible start date of the project). This can be compared to saving enough money to buy one's own house. These days, people usually get a mortgage, and try to pay it off with cash flow over a long period of time.

    Also, I'd think breaking even is less ambitious than making profits, and thus easier to achieve.

  7. #24
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Our associations are 'not-for-profit' organisations

    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post

    I'm still not getting it, esp. I thought Chris mentioned that it's taken them a long long time to come up with $300K, and they're still short. I guess it all depends on how much more is needed (thus projected feasible start date of the project). This can be compared to saving enough money to buy one's own house. These days, people usually get a mortgage, and try to pay it off with cash flow over a long period of time.

    Also, I'd think breaking even is less ambitious than making profits, and thus easier to achieve.

    .
    Our associations are 'not-for-profit' organisations. I suppose this makes it difficult to borrow money from banks.

    I shall find out more info from the associations before I can make more comments.
    .

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    This can be compared to saving enough money to buy one's own house. These days, people usually get a mortgage, and try to pay it off with cash flow over a long period of time.

    Also, I'd think breaking even is less ambitious than making profits, and thus easier to achieve.
    The community associtation cannot prove long term cash flow to pay it off, as they rely on member, persumably on an annual subscription and although neither could a business the thing is banks don't like break even, they like profit!

    Also I doubt the members would be willing to take on debt...........

    If it is so easy, do it yourself & reduce your badminton costs!

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    If it is so easy, do it yourself & reduce your badminton costs!
    Take it easy . I'm just a causal observer making a rather causal comment here (without any insight). No offense intended. There are a few discussions about the proliferation of badminton gym here in California, but it seems difficult in Australia. I'm just curious.

    As of today, we've 13 privately started dedicated gyms in our neighborhood (I might have miscounted). It appears there's an exponential growth here. This is in addition to the existing multi-purpose gym in community centers, colleges, and high schools. This growth seems to make starting a badminton gym look "easy", esp. I heard some started as a non-profit (similar to your situation?), and expands in number of gyms. How do they do it? Someone has to take some risks to begin with, I suppose.

    Of course, I'm also aware of some dedicated gyms down south that are built from ground up (and not rented). They cost north of a million USD. So the spectrum here is quite wide. It all depends on your ideal. Which one are you shooting for? How high a demand you anticipate?

    Do I want to do it myself, and cut costs? To start with, I never really like the idea of carry truck load of debt (i.e. mortgage). Rental suits me just fine. Sometime paying an ongoing higher cost in order to free up your capital for something else might be a better alternative.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    Take it easy . I'm just a causal observer making a rather causal comment here (without any insight). No offense intended
    I was being tongue in cheek.....with the amount of courts in your area the competition levels should keep cost manageable anyway. I asume Chris has less choice (probably no badminton only gyms?) which may be tough to block book at times onvenient to users & if land/build costs are cheap enough, it will be worth it.

    I wish them the best of luck!

  11. #28
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    From what I've heard about Smash City, it was very hard for them to make back the money they spent on opening that place. Training is the main cause of revenue.

  12. #29
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    Arrow It's very hard to make back the money spent

    Quote Originally Posted by CantSmashThis View Post

    From what I've heard about Smash City, it was very hard for them to make back the money they spent on opening that place. Training is the main cause of revenue.

    .
    This is true.

    The cost of the coaching is usually higher because trainees are paying for the teaching service.

    The cost of the hire of courts cannot be too high because it could discourage social/family players from going there.
    .

  13. #30
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    I don't like how the prices kept going up... before it was only 3 bucks.. then 5... then 7... then 8.50.. one point it got to 10$... now it's average 8 bucks for an open gym... I wonder what the price will be like after 10 years..

    I guess this is the result of having so many gyms...

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by eeyore12345 View Post
    I don't like how the prices kept going up... before it was only 3 bucks.. then 5... then 7... then 8.50.. one point it got to 10$... now it's average 8 bucks for an open gym... I wonder what the price will be like after 10 years..

    I guess this is the result of having so many gyms...
    Assuming inflation rate of 3%, in 10 years, it'd be $11.4.

    Maybe they're trying to encourage you to become their member? If you get their introductory price, you can do your math again...

    3-5 bucks are only for lunch hours, AFAIK. Now this is a new gym also.

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by eeyore12345 View Post
    I don't like how the prices kept going up... before it was only 3 bucks.. then 5... then 7... then 8.50.. one point it got to 10$... now it's average 8 bucks for an open gym... I wonder what the price will be like after 10 years..

    I guess this is the result of having so many gyms...
    Without preaching economics to you (you probably know more than me anyway) If you have more gyms it shouldbe more competitive so price lowers, but the reason why there are more gyms seems to be the demand, so until the supply (number of gyms) outstrips the demand (people wanting to play) the price will rise.

    At some point there will be an equilibrium and the price will stabilise, or if fewer people go, the gyms may lower to the price to keep their gyms full (at the expense of someone elses gym...

  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    Without preaching economics to you (you probably know more than me anyway) If you have more gyms it shouldbe more competitive so price lowers, but the reason why there are more gyms seems to be the demand, so until the supply (number of gyms) outstrips the demand (people wanting to play) the price will rise.

    At some point there will be an equilibrium and the price will stabilise, or if fewer people go, the gyms may lower to the price to keep their gyms full (at the expense of someone elses gym...

    I don't think that is the case. You got to know the opening a professional badminton gym here in Bay Area is something new. I don't think it is the demand, the demand is always there, but only to a limit. By opening a new gym, the population will be diluted and therefore not enough money to gain in 1 place. I really think the price is higher because not enough people are playing at there gym. They simply cannot lower the prices because it won't be enough to even pay monthly rent.
    The reason I don't think there are more gyms because of the demands because whenever a new gym open, the rest of the gym lose customers. Haven't you noticed the trend? The owners simply cannot lower the price because even if they do, the customers aren't always going to their club. Mainly because factors such as competitive and locations comes into play. I know of a club that tried to lower their prices because they have few customers, however it went out of business after a couple of months.

    I don't think the theory of supply and demand apply to badminton that much. It's pretty logic to think that if you lower your price to 3 dollars an open gym, and someone could always open another badminton gym and offer the same and all the other gym would offer the same rate. Your gym would go out of business in no time. I think the high prices are just to pay back the rent and investment they put in.

  17. #34
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Question I wonder what the price will be like after 10 years

    Quote Originally Posted by eeyore12345 View Post

    I don't like how the prices kept going up... before it was only 3 bucks.. then 5... then 7... then 8.50.. one point it got to 10$... now it's average 8 bucks for an open gym... I wonder what the price will be like after 10 years..

    I guess this is the result of having so many gyms...

    .
    The gym operators hope that players would support their business ventures.

    The players hope that gym operators would not charge high prices that they cannot afford.

    Sooner or later, these 2 forces will be stabilised. And everyone will be happy.
    .

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