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    Default Countering Deceptive Shots

    This tournament I played yesterday, I was quite definitively confident about my form. I played well through the rounds, winning by large margins and I thought that my top form was on. In the final I was on with this rather large and nonathletic-looking player. I lost the game, mainly due to his deceptive style of playing. One question I need help on

    i) I serve low all the time, but he is really good hitting the shuttle right at the last minute, always catching me off guard leading to have to retrieve the birdie at an uncomfortable position. I tried countering with high serves, but it doesn't work. Are there any other alternative solutions? thx help is greatly appreciated

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    When playing deceptive players you need to try 2 things.

    1.You push the shuttle high & slow to the corners. If you play short & mid court then their deception can "work" as the distance the shuttle has to travel is less, giving you less time to reach. Deception as I understand you are talking about is hit late, so hitting to the corners mean it is less likely they can attack (the shuttle will be hit flatter)

    2.Play fast. players can only use deception to their advantage when they have time and are in control. If 1. doesn't work they try play fast.

    If they still beat you using the above tactics, then just train & improve. They are overall better than you. Tactics can only overcome people where skill levels are similar, if they are also faaster than you (2.) or can hit the shots from the corners you still cannot reach (1.) then they are just better than you.

    Which tactic you try first depends on your style. I would try 2. first as I like to push the pace, but other players may like a slower pace so try 1. first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    When playing deceptive players you need to try 2 things.

    1.You push the shuttle high & slow to the corners. If you play short & mid court then their deception can "work" as the distance the shuttle has to travel is less, giving you less time to reach. Deception as I understand you are talking about is hit late, so hitting to the corners mean it is less likely they can attack (the shuttle will be hit flatter)

    2.Play fast. players can only use deception to their advantage when they have time and are in control. If 1. doesn't work they try play fast.

    If they still beat you using the above tactics, then just train & improve. They are overall better than you. Tactics can only overcome people where skill levels are similar, if they are also faaster than you (2.) or can hit the shots from the corners you still cannot reach (1.) then they are just better than you.

    Which tactic you try first depends on your style. I would try 2. first as I like to push the pace, but other players may like a slower pace so try 1. first.
    the slow deep lifts to the back court doesn't always work, some of these people have amazing crosscourt drop shots + good clear. At this point, you just have to keep the pressure up and anticipate both "extreme" shots. Usually if you are able to return the following shot, the point is easily won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PyourK View Post
    the slow deep lifts to the back court doesn't always work, some of these people have amazing crosscourt drop shots + good clear. At this point, you just have to keep the pressure up and anticipate both "extreme" shots. Usually if you are able to return the following shot, the point is easily won.
    Yes it is risky for "shotmakers" bence why the other tactic is play fast to not give them time.

    If they have great shots & can play faster than you, then you just need to get better........

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    Oh don't get me wrong, his shots are great and accurate, and I'm pretty sure i'm faster than him, its just that he must have a really cunning mind or something. cheers james for the solutions, i'll try playing fast. someone told me to look at the shuttle not at the player, which i guess applies to this situation. don't know the extent of the truth this statement haha

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    As has been pointed out in this thread already, I think the best option when playing these players is to simply not give them chance to deceive you with their clever shots. Apply lots of pressure to them - make them move and take their time away. If they're stretching and struggling to reach every shuttle, they're not going to have chance to keep you guessing. By picking the pace of the rallies up or just heavily varying the pace, they'll probably have trouble finding any rhythm. Basically, just do everything you can to make their shots go away from them or to make them unable to play the shots that you can't read.

    EDIT: I just saw your most recent post and the advice you've been given is sound. Look at where the shuttle is going because it can't deceive you. The player on the other hand, can. By all means look at them a bit to see if you can pick any clues up and anticipate where they're putting the shuttle next but bare in mind that you should keep some focus on the shuttle because that is a much truer representation of where the shot is going.
    Last edited by Danstevens; 05-05-2010 at 09:57 AM.

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    Sound explanation too Dsteve. The thing about deception u never know when its coming, even the most professional players fall to it. so i guess having an eye on the shuttle is probably better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    When playing deceptive players you need to try 2 things.

    1.You push the shuttle high & slow to the corners. If you play short & mid court then their deception can "work" as the distance the shuttle has to travel is less, giving you less time to reach. Deception as I understand you are talking about is hit late, so hitting to the corners mean it is less likely they can attack (the shuttle will be hit flatter)
    Wouldn't hitting the shuttle slow/high give more time to your opponent? I'd compare such a shot with a high serve. When you serve high, you'd want to serve as close to the center line as you can manage. From there, your opponent doesn't have as good an angle of attack, and you don't need to bias to one side or the other; simply straddle the center line.

    So, I'm thinking that if #2 (i.e. faster shot) doesn't work, hit more high slow shots to the center. You attack the corners only when you're in good balance and have some certainty that you can apply pressure. Hopefully the rallies would now be longer, and that you're more consistent than your opponent. One thing I read somewhere is that deceptive players might be less consistent, as they usually apply slices and maybe delaying contact time that could affect shot quality.

    Finally, you might also want to try "waiting" until your opponent hits his shot before you move. In other words, don't move until the shuttle has left his racket. Deceptive shots play on people's anticipation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    Wouldn't hitting the shuttle slow/high give more time to your opponent? I'd compare such a shot with a high serve. When you serve high, you'd want to serve as close to the center line as you can manage. From there, your opponent doesn't have as good an angle of attack, and you don't need to bias to one side or the other; simply straddle the center line.

    Finally, you might also want to try "waiting" until your opponent hits his shot before you move. In other words, don't move until the shuttle has left his racket. Deceptive shots play on people's anticipation.
    Yes the two option were entirely different. If you are not fast & the opponent is, then you should keep the shuttle far in the rear court/corners as this way you will have more time to "see" the shuttle. If you play fast (punch clears, drives etc...) & the opponent reaches them you are in more trouble, since he is still in control and you have less time to react.

    If however you are faster than them then simply use option 2.

    I am aware of the first option because one of my coaches was very deceptive, and my footwork was very bad. I couldn't beat him playing fast as I could not cover the court fast enough. The tactic used then was to push him right to the back as the deception he used could be "seen" and was less consistent from a longer distance (obviously).

    As I have improved my footwork however the option is simply to play fast & he can't keep up. If a player is already faster however, but not so accurate to hit deep, corner shots, then you could try option 1.

    With respect to waiting, I reccomend waiting until the opponent has hit the shuttle in singles anyway, except where your opponent is deep in the rear court with the shuttle well below the level of the net.

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    Being a deception/counter player myself (and a non-athletic 15 stoner) I can tell you when my deceptive shots fail, and it's usually down to distance; the closer I am to the net, the more chance I have of getting people to commit the wrong way.

    Being deceptive from the rear-court is a lot more difficult because the opponent does need to anticipate as much - they can stay on the T and "wait" for the shot; if they get caught doing this in the forecourt a deceptive player can have them in two shots or less. James, therefore, has it right: play it high, slow, and deep, and take up your base position as quickly as possible.

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    why not low, moderate-slow and deep instead? high just gives them more time. playing it higher just gives them the option to clear easier.

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    Its pretty simple really, only move when shuttle is hit!! For once it is hit, its only going 1 place. Only anticipate when the opponent is struggling for it is harder to be deceptive but always jus be aware as even then, it is possible to deceive sum1 when out of position.

    For example, u push a flat fast clear into my backhand, am rushing back and shuttle is behind me so I know ul prob stand bit further up to cover straight drop so i might try a cross court drop shot. Works sumtimes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelyn51 View Post
    Sound explanation too Dsteve. The thing about deception u never know when its coming, even the most professional players fall to it. so i guess having an eye on the shuttle is probably better.
    Absolutely, if you can read your opponent well then it's OK to keep an eye on them to get more clues as to what they're going to do next. If your opponent is an enigma, and a lot are, you're probably better off keeping your eyes on the shuttle so your opponent has a harder time confusing you.

    As for hitting the shuttle high and deep, I'm not a great fan of that tactic if it's going to be used for long periods of time. If you're going to vary the pace then I'm not opposed to seeing you hit one or two really slow rallies but to play mostly slow, high and deep shots for a match comes across to me as being quite negative badminton and better players will probably exploit this negativity by imposing their will on you. I do understand how the tactic works in the sense that some players have difficulty with shots that are high and deep and you have plenty of time to get in to a good position to return the next shot. Perhaps being an attacking player means that I don't see the attraction of completely killing the pace and being content just to keep your opponent at bay as opposed to pushing them and making them work but then I suppose, each to their own and if it gets the win, I suppose it can't be such a bad tactic.

    Thinking about it though, despite the fact I wouldn't advocate using high, deep shots extensively, if you do find yourself on the back foot, a slow, high and deep lift isn't such a bad way to attempt a recovery. Whilst from that position, I still wouldn't rate your chances of winning the point as good because your opponent has free will to hit a massive smash or move you around with a drop shot, I still think your chances are better than if you just tried to end the rally instantly as soon as you noticed trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    Yes the two option were entirely different. If you are not fast & the opponent is, then you should keep the shuttle far in the rear court/corners as this way you will have more time to "see" the shuttle.
    I've no objection to it being high and slow. But I think the placement might not be right. It should probably be placed centrally. Hence I reference to angle of attack. This is explained in both Badminton Bible and in Jake Downey's "Winning Singles" book. From the side, your opponent actually has a better attacking position.

    Another way to take time away from your opponent is to hit the shots towards him, e.g. the jamming body smashes, so he has to take it early rather than late.

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    well for me(also a deceptive shot player),i think the weakness of deceptive shot player is that once u understand how we play,our shot become useless right away.but still like everyone here say,if u play fast,we are not fast enough to analyze the game.and if u hit the Bridie in a low Angle,we can.t do any trick shot at all,cuz most of the trick shot require a high angle,so we do a first swing to flinch you and then hit the birdie with a complete different angle

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    Very good advice already given.

    May I also add that with deceptive plays, the "deceptor" is waiting for the "deceptee" to move or shift his weight in one direction before a deceptive shot is made in the opposite direction. So, as a deceptee, in order to counter this, you have to quickly recover to your base position after your shot, and then wait till he makes a shot before you move. If you do anticipate a shot, just remember to not fully commit in that direction as you may have to go in the opposite direction if he tries to deceive you.

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    Deceptive players contact the birdie a bit late than other players. This can be used against them. If they reach the shuttle late, no much scope of deceptive tactics.

    Deception is more effective when they are in the fore court and mid court and they have enough time. You do not reply a net shot with a counder drop unless you are extramly good at it. Also force the shots away from them so that they do not have time for deception.

    Attacking clears to the side and defensive clears to the center of back court is good. Because, when you make a high defensive clear, they can get behind the shuttle early-there you want to limit the angle of returns. If you lift your defensive clear to the side, then you should be covering the smash down the line which would leave gaps for cross court smash#drop. But in case of attaking clear, you are not expecting a smash return. Hence to the side is a better option.

    You can also mix up ur shots. Use all 3 serves-Short, long and flick. Keep them on their toes.

    Last but not the least. Do split split drop as the hit the bird and try not to shift the weight till you are sure where the bird is going to.

    Hope this helps.

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