Was Chen Jin cheating?

***Cheung*** · 08-30-2010, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by jug8man

A good theory no doubt.

However... At least a large part of the people posting here are 100% sure that Taufik is
1) Low enough to resort to match delay tactics
2) Easy to be fooled by other players.

for point 1) I've never seen Taufik complain when he played and lost to LCW, another tip top fit retriever. Why complain when playing CJ?

for point 2)... fool with the Master Taufik? That would be more difficult than fooling a live telecast me thinks

Originally Posted by logatech

for point 1) This is the final of the world championships. T definitely wants to win. And delaying a match in this way is allowed by the rules. Now, how come no other players ever complained about ChenJin manipulating shuttles? It is logically possible that ChenJin only uses this when playing against Taufilk, but this does not make sense.

for point 2) Yes, Taufik can be fooled easily, not by me, but by any top players

Thank you logatech.

In addition, for point 1) I have seen TH get upset before - HK Open, Macau Open. There's also the walking out at Asian Games in Korea, going into the stands after a heckler in InaOpen, smashing his racquet in Thomas Cup for few others. Just because he hasn't complained against LCW doesn't mean TH has suddenly become an angel. Matured, yes, angel, no.

point 2) can always try it out. Nothing to lose except a verbal warning from the umpire - won't even be a yellow card offence.

**pBmMalaysia** · 08-30-2010, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by extremenanopowe

Its time for a new technology to check on the shuttle flight speed and condition. Proactive shuttle monitoring technology. And proactive player cheating technology or cheeky monitoring technology.

Any geeks out there writing open source programs yet? Extend it to nagios please. Am sure the technology will be available soon. And of course, player weight monitoring technology. lol.

lol that was a good one!

**deca2000** · 08-30-2010, 09:57 AM

Suppose we switch the position of Chen Jin and Taufik. Suppose it were Chen Jin who complained about Taufik manipulating the shuttle, showed two shuttles to the judges, etc., did exactly the same as what Taufik did, what would be your reaction? Just be honest.

**undeadshot** · 08-30-2010, 10:05 AM

So, now we are turning it into Taufik supporters vs Chen Jin supporters issue? I'm telling you, it is incredibly hard to see it form an unbiased point of view. Chen Jin supporters will definitely protect Chen Jin. All those people who have been very vocal against Taufik so far are most definitely China supporters, while those who are vocal against Chen Jin are probably those who do not support China. If this is happening, the discussion is not productive.

**taneepak** · 08-30-2010, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Thom_bad

I'm quite surprised that some of us don't know that breaking the feathers can slow the spped of the shuttle......
In France it's very common to do that, and if the both players are okay ,we do it even during official matches !!

A shuttle with even one broken feather will be erratic and the players will insist on a new shuttlecock. Usually, a cheat who wants more time to recover will intentionally break a feather for the sole reason of time wasting to replace with a new shuttlecock.

**logatech** · 08-30-2010, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by undeadshot

So, now we are turning it into Taufik supporters vs Chen Jin supporters issue? I'm telling you, it is incredibly hard to see it form an unbiased point of view. Chen Jin supporters will definitely protect Chen Jin. All those people who have been very vocal against Taufik so far are most definitely China supporters, while those who are vocal against Chen Jin are probably those who do not support China. If this is happening, the discussion is not productive.

I don't support accusing anyone without anything to backup. This is not a discussion anymore, if people have reached their conclusion before even trying to discuss about it.

**taneepak** · 08-30-2010, 10:21 AM

Look, why is it so difficult to understand that a shuttlecock that has been in play can only be slowed down if it can be manipulated to have increased air resistance? Only increased air resistance can slow down a shuttle. A shuttlecock that is in play and then manipulated to have all the feathers bent outwards at the tips will have a larger diameter, which will increase air resistance. It is this increased air resistance that slows its speed. But bent feather tips can be spotted easily and no player can get away with it. There is no way you can get away with it.
Now, tell me how on earth can you make a good shuttlecock slow down without increasing its air resistance or increasing its drag? By placing three fingers inside the shuttle? By pretending to rub the feathers with your fingers?

**pBmMalaysia** · 08-30-2010, 10:27 AM

couldn't get your pm answered or still unable to figure out how?

**logatech** · 08-30-2010, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by taneepak

Look, why is it so difficult to understand that a shuttlecock that has been in play can only be slowed down if it can be manipulated to have increased air resistance? Only increased air resistance can slow down a shuttle. A shuttlecock that is in play and then manipulated to have all the feathers bent outwards at the tips will have a larger diameter, which will increase air resistance. It is this increased air resistance that slows its speed. But bent feather tips can be spotted easily and no player can get away with it. There is no way you can get away with it.
Now, tell me how on earth can you make a good shuttlecock slow down without increasing its air resistance or increasing its drag? By placing three fingers inside the shuttle? By pretending to rub the feathers with your fingers?

Let's take a step back. Suppose that ChenJin figures out a way of manipulating shuttles (only God knows how) and only Taufik can detect it ( only God knows how). The alteration to the shuttle is small, because it is not noticed by naked eyes when comparing to a new shuttle. Now suppose again that ChenJin also has mastered this, and his service is not affected by the altered shuttle, Taufik will notice when he returns the service. After that, the importance of the alteration is almost none, because pros can get used to shuttles with slight differences quickly. So in my opinion, a more reasonable way would be looking at the statistics of the unforced error rate of the service return of Taufik, when he plays against ChenJin. If these stats are unusually high, then it says something.

***Cheung*** · 08-30-2010, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by undeadshot

So, now we are turning it into Taufik supporters vs Chen Jin supporters issue? I'm telling you, it is incredibly hard to see it form an unbiased point of view. Chen Jin supporters will definitely protect Chen Jin. All those people who have been very vocal against Taufik so far are most definitely China supporters, while those who are vocal against Chen Jin are probably those who do not support China. If this is happening, the discussion is not productive.

Is that a question or a statement? The crux here is can the shuttle be altered in a way that is imperceptable yet affect the flight to put off a world class player and not his opponent. Having played a little badminton myself in the past, I think there are a lot of holes in the proposal that the shuttle has been altered. It's far easier and logical to try and play the psychological game of disrupting the opponent's rhythm instead. Wether CJ does it first or Taufik tried it more theatrically is something we as an audience have to judge. And we shouldn't pass judgement naively.

**Anatolii** · 08-30-2010, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by undeadshot

So, now we are turning it into Taufik supporters vs Chen Jin supporters issue? I'm telling you, it is incredibly hard to see it form an unbiased point of view. Chen Jin supporters will definitely protect Chen Jin. All those people who have been very vocal against Taufik so far are most definitely China supporters, while those who are vocal against Chen Jin are probably those who do not support China. If this is happening, the discussion is not productive.

the answer is yes and no. no, this is not happening, not really; most members have presented good reasoning behind their views. and yes, the discussion has not been entirely productive. for the most part of this thread, it appears as if we are trying to convince just one person that there was no cheating (on either side). but although jug8man thinks that all your points are "no doubt valid", he still adamantly maintains that CJ was a cheat.

and some of his (obviously numerous) back-up points include:

Even the male commentator said that the shuttle 'may have been' manipulated to slow down the shuttle (to Chen Jin's advantage)

I watched the show live with a former World Chinese Men Single Champion. The 70 year old man came to the same the same conclusion as I did.

I disagree unless we can get the Umpire to come to BC Forum and give his honest opinion.

All I saw is an angry Taufik and Coach reaction to what they saw... and an umpire who paused and did not deny Taufik

so, hey how can you argue with all that?
but luckily, he advised :

Don't take things too seriously and let's respect each others opinion people.

Cheers, Chill and be happy

even though, admittedly it was he who initiated the thread out of emotion.

in Conclusion, i think it's time we rest our case. we've done our best. Cheers, Chill and be happy.

**ericmeiguo** · 08-30-2010, 12:05 PM

Do you ever read the statistics? Smash winner: 6 vs 18

I can't image there is such a way that CJ could manipulate the birds to slow down TH's smash but not to affect his own smash.

**HiddenPower** · 08-30-2010, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by ericmeiguo

Do you ever read the statistics? Smash winner: 6 vs 18

I can't image there is such a way that CJ could manipulate the birds to slow down TH's smash but not to affect his own smash.

Exactly, CJ smashed much more than TH curing the entire match. I really don't get it where the "cheating" part is from.

**ThePlayer** · 08-30-2010, 12:55 PM

If you cannot beat the opponent on the court. You try to destroy him outside the court. That is what happening.

**ctjcad** · 08-30-2010, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by deca2000

Suppose we switch the position of Chen Jin and Taufik. Suppose it were Chen Jin who complained about Taufik manipulating the shuttle, showed two shuttles to the judges, etc., did exactly the same as what Taufik did, what would be your reaction? Just be honest.

..that's another interesting question to ask..

**Bbn** · 08-30-2010, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Contactjj

Maybe it is just me. It sounds more like a smearing campaign: cannot win on the court, win it somewhere else.

Regarding the evidence, I will trust the officials on the court rather than taking the word from someone self-claimed 'unbiased and neutral' bystander.

The funny thing is how could only one of the two players benefit from such tactic? They did play the same 'not-so-perfect' shuttle, didn't they? It is laughable to speculate a great legend like TH would fall to 'lowly' CJ because 'not-so-perfect' shuttles.

By the way, what is a 'perfect shuttle'?

it is the opinion of an "unbiased and neutral supporter', and besides that how do we know that this person is a shuttle expert also, even more expert than the BWF experts and other spectators and BC members involved with badminton for decades.

**Bbn** · 08-30-2010, 05:36 PM

So far as far as the players are concerned and based on the history and record of the players I agree with Cheung totally.

And don't forget that Cheung is also a certified coach like many many others here.

I would still like to learn how to manipulate a shuttle undetected, maybe someone could demo it on youtube.

then I will deliver it by hand to the BWF Also then I earn some extra pocket money by winning lots of bets "short cut" way. That will be using know how to make some pocket money.