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  1. #1
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    Thumbs up MS: Who has the best head to head record of top players

    There is no doubt Lin Dan is the best, he's still the best.

    By head to head, Lin Dan is the only one (of course there cannot be 2, but most cases, there are none in most sports) who holds the winning h2d against any player / every player! Amazing! Most sports, there is no such person who holds winning h2d against anyone/everyone. There's none in the WS, MD, WD, XD either!

    Ok, Lin Dan is the number 1, then who's the number 2. I could say Lee CW if asked before the WC 2010. But now, he's still the number 2?

    Chen Jin just got the world champion. He's also the Olympics medalist, and all england winner. Is CJ the number 2?

    LCW has the winning h2d against CJ. both of them, have a winning h2h against Taufik and Gade, while of couse have the losing h2h against Lin Dan. LCW tied with Song and Chen Long in h2h, While Chen Jin has the winning h2h against both Sony and Chen Long. LCW also won the all England, but no world champion.

    If look at the h2h records, Taufik and Gade are terrible. Taufik lost terribly against Lin Dan, Lee CW, Bao CL, Chen Jin. Gade not any better, even slightly lost to Taufik too.

    also the head 2 head, the Indonesia triad Taufik, Sony, Simon, they all have a terrible h2d against Chinese trio LD, BCL and CJ. This is totally beyond my expectation.

    Lin Dan vs Taufik: 7 : 3

    Lin Dan vs Sony: 9 : 1

    Lin Dan vs Simon: 6 : 0

    Chen Jin vs Taufik: 3 : 1

    Chen Jin vs Sony: 3 : 2

    Chen Jin vs Simon: 5 : 0

    Bao CL vs Taufik: 8 : 2

    Bao CL vs Sony: 5 : 3

    Bao CL vs Simon: 4 : 0

    Especially Simon has never won any Chinese players yet.

    From these analysis, I found Lin Dan, Lee CW, Chen Jin and Bao CL are the best 4 players clearly. Lin Dan is no doubt the best, but who's the 2nd best, I'm not very sure. Please help me with your comments. Thanks
    Last edited by freelast; 09-10-2010 at 07:11 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member undeadshot's Avatar
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    2nd best? But I can tell you the top 3 is LD, LCW and CJ. In 2010 H2H, LCW has beaten CJ twice in both meetings. It was a real thrashing in the Korean Open while he was taken to 3 games a week later in the Malaysian Open. But CJ has improved by leaps and bounds, his retrieval skills are now godlike and from the WC, we could see LCW not even managing to penetrate Taufik's depends, how can we talk about CJ?
    But then and again, their performances always changes. I would not like to rate a second best. Both of these players are surprisingly very, very consistent on the circuit. Let's say that they can overtake one another for periods of time. E.g. MO and KO : LCW > CJ but WC CJ > LCW. We don't know about now.

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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    IMO, if simply going by H2H record, then LCW is no.2 (better H2H records vs. CJ and BCL) and overall, better H2H record against the other top 10 MS players except Super Dan..

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    LCW holds the winning h2h against CJ. I would rank LCW the 2nd best without any doubt before the World Championship. But the things changed after the WC. CJ won the WC, that's the reason for this thread. H2h is important to see one's ability. But winning something big is also important even though it's a kind of combination of mental toughness and pure luck.

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    Regular Member undeadshot's Avatar
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    With LCW still having his injury, CJ is better now. We have to wait until he is fully fit (Asian Games?) then we can see who is the real champ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    IMO, if simply going by H2H record, then LCW is no.2 (better H2H records vs. CJ and BCL) and overall, better H2H record against the other top 10 MS players except Super Dan..
    I checked the h2h for the top 10 (actually more than top 10). Even for top 10: (listed below)

    LCW lost to LD, tied with Sony and Chen Long, won others.
    CJ lost to LD and LCW, BCL, won others.

    If we count winning record as 2 points, tie as 1 point, lossing as 0 points, maximum point is 18
    LD = 18 points; won 9 against everyone
    LCW = 14 points; won 6 tied 2 lost 1
    CJ = 12 points; won 6 lost 3
    BCL = 12 points; lost to LD, LCW, PG, won others
    Taufik = 9 points lost to LD, LCW, CJ, BCL, tied with Chen Long, won PG, Simon, Sony, Nguyen
    Sony = 8 points; lost to LD, CJ, BCL, TH, tie with SS, LCW, won PG, Chen Long, NTM
    P Gade = 7 points; lost to LD, TH, LCW, CJ, Sony, tied with Chen Long, won BCL, SS, NTM
    Chen Long = 5 points; lost to LD, CJ, BCL, Sony, tied with LCW, PG, TH, SS, NTM
    Simon = 4 points; lost to LD, LCW, CJ, BCL, PG, TH, tied with Sony, Chen Long; won NTM
    NTM = 1 points; only tied with Chen Long 0:0

    1 MAS[MAS] Chong Wei LEE5015281866.857813
    2 DEN[DEN] Peter Hoeg GADE692670175.11414
    3 CHN[CHN] Jin CHEN5159266502.200410
    4 INA[INA] Taufik HIDAYAT1033762791.713
    5 CHN[CHN] Dan LIN5090660033.9758
    6 INA[INA] Simon SANTOSO5159956790.519113
    7 CHN[CHN] Chunlai Bao512745469411
    8 VIE[VIE] Tien Minh NGUYEN1410754624.79414
    9CHN[CHN] Long CHEN7578753223.149513
    10INA[INA] Sony DWI KUNCORO5042752572.477712

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    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    There is no doubt Lin Dan is the best, he's still the best.

    By head to head, Lin Dan is the only one (of course there cannot be 2, but most cases, there are none in most sports) who holds the winning h2d against any player / every player! Amazing! Most sports, there is no such person who holds winning h2d against anyone/everyone. There's none in the WS, MD, WD, XD either!

    Ok, Lin Dan is the number 1, then who's the number 2. I could say Lee CW if asked before the WC 2010. But now, he's still the number 2?

    Chen Jin just got the world champion. He's also the Olympics medalist, and all england winner. Is CJ the number 2?

    LCW has the winning h2d against CJ. both of them, have a winning h2h against Taufik and Gade, while of couse have the losing h2h against Lin Dan. LCW tied with Song and Chen Long in h2h, While Chen Jin has the winning h2h against both Sony and Chen Long. LCW also won the all England, but no world champion.

    If look at the h2h records, Taufik and Gade are terrible. Taufik lost terribly against Lin Dan, Lee CW, Bao CL, Chen Jin. Gade not any better, even slightly lost to Taufik too.

    also the head 2 head, the Indonesia triad Taufik, Sony, Simon, they all have a terrible h2d against Chinese trio LD, BCL and CJ. This is totally beyond my expectation.

    Lin Dan vs Taufik: 7 : 3

    Lin Dan vs Sony: 9 : 1

    Lin Dan vs Simon: 6 : 0

    Chen Jin vs Taufik: 3 : 1

    Chen Jin vs Sony: 3 : 2

    Chen Jin vs Simon: 5 : 0

    Bao CL vs Taufik: 8 : 2

    Bao CL vs Sony: 5 : 3

    Bao CL vs Simon: 4 : 0

    Especially Simon has never won any Chinese players yet.

    From these analysis, I found Lin Dan, Lee CW, Chen Jin and Bao CL are the best 4 players clearly. Lin Dan is no doubt the best, but who's the 2nd best, I'm not very sure. Please help me with your comments. Thanks
    yes, i would have doubts if you say lin dan is no.1

    as far as we know the world number 1 is still lee chong wei

    this ranking of players is done by badminton world federation or b w f

    thus it is only fair to say who is number 1 based on the number of tournaments participated and won

    as done by b w f

    i do not know whether you are aware of this so i am pointing to you simply because you want us bc members to help you

    if this thread is purely to follow your analysis to be on topic then i will retract my above correctons

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    Quote Originally Posted by undeadshot View Post
    With LCW still having his injury, CJ is better now. We have to wait until he is fully fit (Asian Games?) then we can see who is the real champ
    Asian game is not a good one to watch or wait. The participants are limited, thus the competitiveness is low, by the way, CLW did not perform well there either.

    I'm expecting the next several super series.

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    Strictly speaking, that's not true...

    Remember the Korean boy?

    Also, what is the H2H of LD vs CH? A few years ago I think it's something like 5:5, but maybe LD is leading now... (Just checked bwf H2H, it's officially 5:5 -- but we all know the bwf H2H is not complete).

    Btw, in the bwf H2H, it shows LD beat CH in 2005 MAS Open, but doesn't show any detail. Did CH give LD a WO or something? Anyone remembers?

    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    There is no doubt Lin Dan is the best, he's still the best.

    By head to head, Lin Dan is the only one (of course there cannot be 2, but most cases, there are none in most sports) who holds the winning h2d against any player / every player!
    Last edited by ye333; 09-13-2010 at 10:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    yes, i would have doubts if you say lin dan is no.1

    as far as we know the world number 1 is still lee chong wei

    this ranking of players is done by badminton world federation or b w f

    thus it is only fair to say who is number 1 based on the number of tournaments participated and won

    as done by b w f

    i do not know whether you are aware of this so i am pointing to you simply because you want us bc members to help you

    if this thread is purely to follow your analysis to be on topic then i will retract my above correctons
    I'm not competing with the BWF's ranking which has its own reason. Mostly the ranking is calculated from how many matches the players won collectively, but not the quality of each match. For example, Winning the 1st round against an unknown, will earn the same points as beating LCW the #1 in the final.

    While h2h records provides a different view among the best players. It overcomes the barriers of the differences between tournaments the players attended. LCW still the number 1 in the BWF ranking, and LD's perfect h2h to everyone doesn't conflict with he's ranking positions (#5) either, because he hasn't collected enough points recently. But LD's ability to win all is so obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    Strictly speaking, that's not true...

    Remember the Korean boy?

    Also, what is the H2H of LD vs CH? A few years ago I think it's something like 5:5, but maybe LD is leading now...
    Park Sung Hwan ? Even though LD lost to him recently, but still holds 10-4 winning h2h.

    LD vs Chen Hong is still 5:5, but Chen Hong is retired. BTW, Chen Hong was also very good, he was the Super Hong before the Super Dan. Anyway, thanks for your point. It's only true for all the current professional players.

    Lin Dan used to be a guy eager to play. Now he's become one of the other players reluctant to play. In many occasional times, LD used to play with local players easily, while Bao CL, Chen Jin, Chen Hong all refused to play with local unknown players. But one time, I saw LD lost to a local player, but that match didn't count as the offical h2h record.
    Last edited by freelast; 09-13-2010 at 10:47 AM.

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    You'd the order of tournaments prestige all reversed. The Asian game is a quadrennial event and if not mistaken has a higher rating (6 star) than the regular SS (5 star highest) tournaments which were held every year.

    When you speak about limitation of participants and competitions, who and where were you referring? The non-participating Europe continent and its missing 5 times European champion PG?

    With due respect I guess you'd prolly started an unnecessary thread!

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    Of course not PSH. It's Mr. Choi.

    What's interesting about CH vs LD is that, take any say 2-year period from 2002 - 2006, the two guys are always evenly matched. It's not like, CH beat the hell out of LD in early years, but then got owned when LD became Super Dan. So LD vs CH is a bit like LCW vs SDK.

    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    Park Sung Hwan ? Even though LD lost to him recently, but still holds 10-4 winning h2h.

    LD vs Chen Hong is still 5:5, but Chen Hong is retired. BTW, Chen Hong was also very good, he was the Super Hong before the Super Dan. Anyway, thanks for your point. It's only true for all the current professional players.

    Lin Dan used to be a guy eager to play. Now he's become one of the other players reluctant to play. In many occasional times, LD used to play with local players easily, while Bao CL, Chen Jin, Chen Hong all refused to play with local unknown players. But one time, I saw LD lost to a local player, but that match didn't count as the offical h2h record.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    Of course not PSH. It's Mr. Choi.

    What's interesting about CH vs LD is that, take any say 2-year period from 2002 - 2006, the two guys are always evenly matched. It's not like, CH beat the hell out of LD in early years, but then got owned when LD became Super Dan. So LD vs CH is a bit like LCW vs SDK.
    Mr Choi?

    Badminton match is still a stochastic process, at least to me. Even though LD vs Choi should be 90% vs 10%, but Choi still has the chance, very likely to happen.

    The same stochastic process applied to CH vs LD, In early days, CH vs LD was 60:40, but unfortunately LD won. After several years, LD became dominant, CH vs LD became 40:60, but unfortunately again CH won.

    The same thing I can see between BCL vs Gade. When BCL was a teenager, Gade was the #1 in the ranking, BCL beat PG twice in their first 2 encounters, and taking an early lead 2:0 in their head 2 head. Then Gade became older and older, and BCL became maturer and stronger, ironically BCL began to lose to Gade, Now Gade took the lead in h2h with 6:4.

    Same thing to LCW vs Sony. First Sony is a very solid player, while LCW could be the better one. But since their junior years, in the junior world championship, BCL bt LD advanced to final, and Sony bt LCW advanced to final, I think from that time, LCW got a phobia against Sony.

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    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    I'm not competing with the BWF's ranking which has its own reason. Mostly the ranking is calculated from how many matches the players won collectively, but not the quality of each match. For example, Winning the 1st round against an unknown, will earn the same points as beating LCW the #1 in the final.

    While h2h records provides a different view among the best players. It overcomes the barriers of the differences between tournaments the players attended. LCW still the number 1 in the BWF ranking, and LD's perfect h2h to everyone doesn't conflict with he's ranking positions (#5) either, because he hasn't collected enough points recently. But LD's ability to win all is so obvious.
    i am sure you are not competing with b w f and if you do, i know they won't mind either lol

    and yes, b w f has its own reasons to do the ranking because it is a world body and they develop and promote badminton!

    so whatever you are going to do here please change the thread title,

    it should be something like ''h2h - who is the 2nd best player'' or

    "who is the h2h 2nd best player''

    otherwise to many its simply misleading..

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    I changed the thread title to suit what you are talking about. The original title had the ability to inflame people & was quite misleadingcompared with the content of the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20 View Post
    I changed the thread title to suit what you are talking about. The original title had the ability to inflame people & was quite misleadingcompared with the content of the thread.
    thanks. But I think who has the best head to head record of top players is so obvious, not the point.

    I was wondering who's the 2nd best player. H2H is just one statitics, not the whole thing. The turning point for this question is because Chen Jin won the WC, while the h2h is a long term index, its change is very slow.

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