MS: Who has the best head to head record of top players

[ctjcad]

Ok let's get it clear, you mentioned that you didn't dispute LCW had a back injury during WC. But you also said you see it as LCW played & finished a full 3 games match.

Let us recap on what you are saying by your 2 statements. Summarization of your statement:-
LCW had a back injury during WC when facing TH. However, he have continued his game to played and finished a full 3 games and eventually he lost it.

Verdict:-
There is a very high possibility LCW lost his game towards TH due to his back injury. Supported with the fact that I pointed out that at one point TH just get continuous points all the way until end of game during game 3 (which was extremely obvious that something was not right).

Impact to the thread discussion:-
CJ indeed didn't outperformed himself as he was merely winning those players he's supposed to win. Supported with the fact that he did not meet LD/ LCW during his path to gold medal. Seriously, if I explained in such a way is still not clear enough for anyone to understand. I give up on explaining!

..actually my point was, as i've already mentioned, based on LCW's H2H record and recent success against Taufik, he should've won against TH in straight games (he has no reason not to since his supposed back injury showed up in the 3rd game, not 1st and/or 2nd games; he won straight games, there's no need to play 3 games); or at the least, he should've made the 1st game scoreline much closer just like how LD made it close in the 1st game of his match vs. LCW in this yr's JO (based on LD's H2H and recent record vs. LCW).
And let's give credit to where they belong and not take away CJ's WC win just because he didn't meet LD and/or LCW. Give credit to Taufik for showing up and winning against LCW. And give credit to PG for showing up and battling CJ in 3 games.

Anyway, we've gone enough. As i already mentioned, you have your own reasonings and i have my own reasonings on freelast's view abt CJ being no.2 based on his WC title (which he kept that argument open). Let's wait for the official explanation by freelast, himself, on why he thought so

[chris-ccc]

i just want a second serve, same as tennis.

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Hi drifit, if you are not happy with how BWF governs/regulates the way we play Badminton, you can always introduce your own set of rules; And call it the new DBF (Drifit's Badminton Federation) system.
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[pBmMalaysia]

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Hi drifit, if you are not happy with how BWF governs/regulates the way we play Badminton, you can always introduce your own set of rules; And call it the new DBF (Drifit's Badminton Federation) system.
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that would be fun for all but if any members make fun of the new system,

drifit can always use the dissappear button

i just want a second serve, same as tennis.

actually, not a bad idea especially for doubles like me, the old folks

bwf should give it a test first and see whether its acceptable

Just 2...I need 15 points up front and 3 service serve playing Aspire and guru PbM.

otb, if i read what you wrote properly, that is, you want to play with me partnering aspire

oh boy, we don't mind losing but sure two versus one especially the one is you,

we gonna have lots and lots of fun moving you around...

the deal is on and it will be based on 15 sets

- If LD took part in as many competition as the WR#1, he may overwhelmed with tiredness and may not have that kind of H2H records.
- If LD took part in as many competition as the WR#1, his tactic of playing may be already familiarized by his competitor hence resulted in not as good achievement

However, the above 2 is just an example with "if" statement. There could be a possibility that if he took part in as many tournament as his rival he still able to maintain his records. We won't really know what the outcome is until he have prove something to us on that particular matter.

Just my 2 cents

if the above 2 'if's' do happen,

lin dan will be

done lin

(amen)

[OneToughBirdie]

..actually my point was, as i've already mentioned, based on LCW's H2H record and recent success against Taufik, he should've won against TH in straight games (he has no reason not to since his supposed back injury showed up in the 3rd game, not 1st and/or 2nd games; he won straight games, there's no need to play 3 games); or at the least, he should've made the 1st game scoreline much closer just like how LD made it close in the 1st game of his match vs. LCW in this yr's JO (based on LD's H2H and recent record vs. LCW).
And let's give credit to where they belong and not take away CJ's WC win just because he didn't meet LD and/or LCW. Give credit to Taufik for showing up and winning against LCW. And give credit to PG for showing up and battling CJ in 3 games.

Anyway, we've gone enough. As i already mentioned, you have your own reasonings and i have my own reasonings on freelast's view abt CJ being no.2 based on his WC title (which he kept that argument open). Let's wait for the official explanation by freelast, himself, on why he thought so

simple answer...TH played very well in WC10, he was there for all LCW shots and rattled LCW in that game. TH was the better player that night.

[OneToughBirdie]

otb, if i read what you wrote properly, that is, you want to play with me partnering aspire

oh boy, we don't mind losing but sure two versus one especially the one is you,

we gonna have lots and lots of fun moving you around...

the deal is on and it will be based on 15 sets

(amen)

I read somewhere Aspire played 5x a week, and the way he described his play, hmmmm, that is quite intimidating....as you coach nd run a 39 courts or something, I need 12 points and 3 service serves in the old 15-point system...one thing I am good at is my stamina, I am quite fit though and run and move quite fast...also, seeing all those videos of ZJH, LCW, TH abd LD, I can unleash my 'skills' at you 2, one at a time, I think I can get the 3 extra points.

[pBmMalaysia]

I read somewhere Aspire played 5x a week, and the way he described his play, hmmmm, that is quite intimidating....as you coach nd run a 39 courts or something, I need 12 points and 3 service serves in the old 15-point system...one thing I am good at is my stamina, I am quite fit though and run and move quite fast...also, seeing all those videos of ZJH, LCW, TH abd LD, I can unleash my 'skills' at you 2, one at a time, I think I can get the 3 extra points.

can you get 3 points continuously for 15 sets?

you versus me and aspire

if you can't, the bet is on

if you can, we loose to you now

[naistav]

There is no doubt Lin Dan is the best, he's still the best.

Lin Dan vs Simon: 6 : 0

Especially Simon has never won any Chinese players yet.

Simon did won his match to LD, although LD was injured at 2nd set.
It was Swiss Open SS, 2007 Semi Final.

[Aspire]

I read somewhere Aspire played 5x a week, and the way he described his play, hmmmm, that is quite intimidating....as you coach nd run a 39 courts or something, I need 12 points and 3 service serves in the old 15-point system...one thing I am good at is my stamina, I am quite fit though and run and move quite fast...also, seeing all those videos of ZJH, LCW, TH abd LD, I can unleash my 'skills' at you 2, one at a time, I think I can get the 3 extra points.

Stop pulling my leg uncle OTB. No matter how frequent I play I am just an amateur.

You could be a member of the 67' Malaysia Thomas Cup winning team!

can you get 3 points continuously for 15 sets?

you versus me and aspire

if you can't, the bet is on

if you can, we loose to you now

15 sets?!! I surrender now.

[lcleing]

can you get 3 points continuously for 15 sets?

you versus me and aspire

if you can't, the bet is on

if you can, we loose to you now

Stop pulling my leg uncle OTB. No matter how frequent I play I am just an amateur.

You could be a member of the 67' Malaysia Thomas Cup winning team!




15 sets?!! I surrender now.

Off topic:
Gentlemen, do not get conned by OTB. From what I gather, He used to play with the top junior in Canada and beat those young lads convincingly. I think giving a 12 points cushion and 3 service serve is a big no no, unless you guys can play like LD.

[lcleing]

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It was thought that H2H results can be a better method to rank players. However, after all our discussions made thus far, it can be found that H2H results have problems too.


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Imagine doing away with the BWF ranking system and start by using H2H ranking system. I could not imagine how chaotic and confusing the ranking is going to be. H2H will only work if each player registered under BWF(more than 700 of them) play against each other for quite some no of games. This is impossible to achieved.
The debate was able to carry on because alot of the H2H ranking calculation proposed by the OP was based on the current BWF world ranking(base on the current top ten players in BWF ranking).
If you think that current BWF ranking system is flawed, how could some other ranking system(H2H) that built upon this flawed basis be considered better? And can you imagine how chaotic the situation is, once we get rid of current system and start adopting the H2H where every player has to start from scratch? All we left is a bunch of players with random Win/Loss pattern and whoever that can come up with a sound ranking out of that random sample would be the greates genius in the 21st century(no, I am serious).
At that point, people would have to resolve to see who wins more titles to comeup with a unbiased/less confusing ranking system which is what we have now(the more titles you have, you more likely you came on top)-the BWF ranking system.

Sorry to come up as harsh but unless you guys(not implying you, chris-ccc) can come up with a thoroughly devised scientific ranking system. The BWF ranking system will remain as the best ranking system we currently have. Forget about the H2H thing, because if that H2H does not build on the current BWF ranking system, it carries very little significance(Unless you are managing a betting company) to tell us who is the best player. However, H2H can give us a little indication on who is the better player among that 2 particular players.

[drifit]

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Hi drifit, if you are not happy with how BWF governs/regulates the way we play Badminton, you can always introduce your own set of rules; And call it the new DBF (Drifit's Badminton Federation) system.
.

head to head for ranking?
Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei, both have not beaten me. i am world ranking number 1 now. can?

[OneToughBirdie]

Off topic:
Gentlemen, do not get conned by OTB. From what I gather, He used to play with the top junior in Canada and beat those young lads convincingly. I think giving a 12 points cushion and 3 service serve is a big no no, unless you guys can play like LD.

One last off topic post, apology to the Mods....you guys flattered me, I need to find a place to hide my face....I last played in KL in SBA hall 30+ yrs ago, I sure would like to play in KL once again, the competition is sure fun there...only problem, I am in Canada, and ain't retired yet, maybe a few more years, by then my game will down the pits and I know and respect how good the malaysian players are in SBA hall, you guys are good.

[Jonc108]

the debate seems going to nowhere... just go too picky and with too much obsession on many unconscious pre-occupation...

like I said, if you look for a 100% perfert scientific system to determine who's the best player, no one here could do. coz you need tons of scientist to work across time (for arguments on players' different ages), space (for arguments on matches on various geographical locaions that could lead to food poison), physiobiology (for arguments of matches with different fatigue status of players), medicine (for arguments on who was playing with injuries and not), etc. to have a weighted index to come on top of all ranking suggestions.

like I also said before, LCW is the only player that could beat LD at least once every year, so LCW beating LD is nothing new. But LD also being beat by at least 2-3 various players every year, and LD also still holding a winning H2H record over all top 10 players every year including LCW. so whilst it's hard fact that LCW won the latest match, do you really think that the LCW would from now on win every match over LD?

simple question:

if the top 10 players now play a league, say LD play LCW once every month, say 12 times a year now, which one do you think / feel would win more matches?

or allow LD to play with LCW in every WC / OG final, say for consecutively 10 years, which one do you think would win the more times?

in reality, it's impossible to have this happen as there are too many other factors, so don't side-track to drag on this. but just answer it in 5 seconds with your gut feeling...

[xavYPC]

heh if lcw play LD once every month...i can see the first three goes to LD and after that it slowly goes to lcw favour...after that i somehow cant see lcw ever lose to LD anymore...just my bias gut feeling xD

[pBmMalaysia]

[QUOTE=Jonc108;1533346]the debate seems going to nowhere... just go too picky and with too much obsession on many unconscious pre-occupation...

like I said, if you look for a 100% perfert scientific system to determine who's the best player, no one here could do. coz you need tons of scientist to work across time (for arguments on players' different ages), space (for arguments on matches on various geographical locaions that could lead to food poison), physiobiology (for arguments of matches with different fatigue status of players), medicine (for arguments on who was playing with injuries and not), etc. to have a weighted index to come on top of all ranking suggestions.

like I also said before, LCW is the only player that could beat LD at least once every year, so LCW beating LD is nothing new. But LD also being beat by at least 2-3 various players every year, and LD also still holding a winning H2H record over all top 10 players every year including LCW. so whilst it's hard fact that LCW won the latest match, do you really think that the LCW would from now on win every match over LD?

simple question:

if the top 10 players now play a league, say LD play LCW once every month, say 12 times a year now, which one do you think / feel would win more matches?

or allow LD to play with LCW in every WC / OG final, say for consecutively 10 years, which one do you think would win the more times?

in reality, it's impossible to have this happen as there are too many other factors, so don't side-track to drag on this. but just answer it in 5 seconds with your gut feeling...[/QUOTE

Yes detail ranking isn't possible so using bwf is after all the only legal way.

Based on how you asked those 2 questions

I say my gut feeling answer are the same as yours.


But be prepare for other answer as some may not see it that way

[chris-ccc]

simple question:

if the top 10 players now play a league, say LD play LCW once every month, say 12 times a year now, which one do you think / feel would win more matches?

in reality, it's impossible to have this happen as there are too many other factors, so don't side-track to drag on this. but just answer it in 5 seconds with your gut feeling...

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My gut feeling is that if LD were to play LCW once every month from now on, their H2H ratio could be 50:50.

When LD was playing less often than LCW at tornaments, LD appeared to be fresher whenever they meet. That was because LD participation rate was only around half of LCW. Could it be said that;
* LD was twice as fresh as LCW, and/or
* LCW was twice as tired as LD?

It's only my gut feeling.
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