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  1. #86
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    Where did you get the data of the 1st list and also the 2nd list? How did you come to conclusion that a win equivalent to 2 points and 1 point for a draw?

  2. #87
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    i respect nguyen tien minh to reach this far
    regardless his head to head
    lol

  3. #88
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    To rank...yes its simple....but not to say "BEST"

    If based on H2H then Mr.Choi is better ranked than LD, but it does not translate Choi is a better player. Therefore solely looking at H2H to determined which player is better is just not a complete and fair assesment.
    Another example: based on H2H ranking, CL is ranked 8th while he tied with LCW, PG, TH, SS, NTM hence how can we justify that CL is ranked below them?? As far as Im concern, based on H2H result only CL is as good as LCW, PG, TH, SS, NTM

    You mean to determine no.2 as for 2nd best player??? or 2nd in the H2H ranking?? You see there is a wide river between those 2, so dont jump in if you cant swim or God is not on your side
    - The thread starter simply wants to know who do we think is the no.2 player behind LD. "Best" or "rank", to me, it's no issue. Then the poster used the H2H records between the current top 10 MS as his basis for his argument. From the stats freelast has given, it's clear LCW is no. 2, there's nothing more to dispute it.
    Alos, IMO, the current thread title is a bit off from the original intended argument. To answer the thread title, of couse we know who is the no.1 player and who has the BEST H2H record of all players!
    - Again, i can't take CHJ's record seriously. Why? Because as i already mentioned, CHJ only played against 1 of the top 10 MS players only once (and in a non-sanctioned IBF/BWF event i may add). Yes, to me, it's not a fair and complete assessment as he doesn't have any other records against the other top 10 MS players. Whilst the other top 10 MS players have played against other top 10 MS a few times. Please show us CHJ's other H2H records agains the other top 10 MS??
    And as i already mentioned, there should be a minimum no. of matches against other players to qualify one's overall H2H record; definitely more than 1 meeting/match. The other top 10 MS players, at least, have done the latter whilst CHJ hasn't.
    Btw, if you click on the link below, BWF has no record of CHJ playing against LD.
    - For CL's example, I think the thread starter wants to see and compare the overall H2H records between the top MS players (wins, loss, tie). Sure, CL has an even record against LCW, PG, TH, SS, NTM. But in this case, LCW has more winning H2H records against other players than CL's (freelast's stats show it), doesn't he?
    - Yes, the original argument was to determine the 2nd best MS player (behind you know who). And, yes, to an extent the 2nd in H2H ranking.
    So, what is your suggestion(s) or other way(s) to determine who's the no.2 player (as the thread starter originally intended and wanted to know)??..

    *For those who wondered where freelast got the H2H stats to do his ranking (1st list), please see this link and please do your own research!
    http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/ra...E-CB57133E64CC
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-16-2010 at 02:56 PM.

  4. #89
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Statistics Never Lie But Liars Use Statistics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    To rank...yes its simple....but not to say "BEST"

    If based on H2H then Mr.Choi is better ranked than LD......

    You mean to determine no.2 as for 2nd best player??? or 2nd in the H2H ranking?? You see there is a wide river between those 2, so dont jump in if you cant swim or God is not on your side
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - The thread starter simply wants to know who do we think is the no.2 player behind LD. "Best" or "rank", to me, it's no issue. Then the poster used the H2H records between the current top 10 MS as his basis for his argument. From the stats freelast has given, it's clear LCW is no. 2, there's nothing more to dispute it.

    *For those who wondered where freelast got the H2H stats to do his ranking (1st list), please see this link and please do your own research!
    http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/ra...E-CB57133E64CC
    .
    Many people say that "Statistics Never Lie But Liars Use Statistics".

    Even in this discussion, why want to use only selected statistics?

    Of course, if we have already made up our minds on who is the No.2 player, then we can gather enough selected statistics to back our claims.

    Therefore, I do not like to use the H2H statistics to our rank players. This is because if we use the H2H statistics to our rank players, and if we focus on LD, then LD, our current top player, would be ranked as No.2. It's because LD's H2H records against all players are good, except for LD's H2H record against CHJ.

    To me, LD is a much better player than CHJ.

    So why use the H2H records that can make CHJ appearing stronger than LD?
    .

  5. #90
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    Since the thread title is who has the best h2h record which has no specific time frame and stringent guidelines unlike the ranking system of BWF then why not let the kids have their day.

    To all sensible people out there, list no.2 of post 85 already say it all.

    But wait, I forgot its all about h2h only here.

  6. #91
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    Forget to give credit to the OP for finally figured out a way (his point system) to back his claim eventhough it took him some times.

    Kudos!
    Last edited by Aspire; 09-16-2010 at 06:01 PM.

  7. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - Again, i can't take CHJ's record seriously. Why? Because as i already mentioned, CHJ only played against 1 of the top 10 MS players only once (and in a non-sanctioned IBF/BWF event i may add). Yes, to me, it's not a fair and complete assessment as he doesn't have any other records against the other top 10 MS players.
    If you cant take CHJ then you should not take the whole H2H thing seriously either. Its simply means that although H2H record can somehow be useful, it has some flaw and cant be use as a single perimeter, especially when determining the "BEST" player.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    Whilst the other top 10 MS players have played against other top 10 MS a few times. Please show us CHJ's other H2H records agains the other top 10 MS??
    No, he does not have. And thats exactly why H2H record is not reliable. I can argue also because all top 10 player did not play in equal numbers therefore its not 100% just.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    And as i already mentioned, there should be a minimum no. of matches against other players to qualify one's overall H2H record; definitely more than 1 meeting/match. The other top 10 MS players, at least, have done the latter whilst CHJ hasn't.
    So whats the minimum number?? 2??
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - For CL's example, I think the thread starter wants to see and compare the overall H2H records between the top MS players (wins, loss, tie). Sure, CL has an even record against LCW, PG, TH, SS, NTM. But in this case, LCW has more winning H2H records against other players than CL's (freelast's stats show it), doesn't he?
    So if you beat me 3 times and i beat you 3 times, I still be ranked higher than you because i beat my neighbour 100 times???? I see no logic at all....sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - Yes, the original argument was to determine the 2nd best MS player (behind you know who). And, yes, to an extent the 2nd in H2H ranking.
    So, what is your suggestion(s) or other way(s) to determine who's the no.2 player (as the thread starter originally intended and wanted to know)??..
    I mentioned my opinion and i wont say it again

  8. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspire View Post
    Since the thread title is who has the best h2h record which has no specific time frame and stringent guidelines unlike the ranking system of BWF then why not let the kids have their day.

    To all sensible people out there, list no.2 of post 85 already say it all.

    But wait, I forgot its all about h2h only here.
    The OP has changed his mind and said for us to forget the H2H thing and just want us to say who do we think the 2nd best player after LD. This is so wrong, how does he conclude in the first place that LD is the best? Maybe LD is (and I think he is), but i hope he did not come to that conclusion because of the H2H record

  9. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspire View Post
    Forget to give credit to the OP for finally figured out a way (his point system) to back his claim eventhough it took him some times.

    Kudos!
    I wont give any credit to that, its full of flaws. For a start, they did not play the same number of times.

  10. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    2 lists:

    1) LD = 18 points; won 9 against everyone

    2) LCW = 14 points; won 6 tied 2 lost 1
    3) CJ = 12 points; won 6 lost 3
    3) BCL = 12 points; lost to LD, LCW, PG, won others

    5) Taufik = 9 points lost to LD, LCW, CJ, BCL, tied with Chen Long, won PG, Simon, Sony, Nguyen
    6) Sony = 8 points; lost to LD, CJ, BCL, TH, tie with SS, LCW, won PG, Chen Long, NTM
    7) P Gade = 7 points; lost to LD, TH, LCW, CJ, Sony, tied with Chen Long, won BCL, SS, NTM

    8) Chen Long = 5 points; lost to LD, CJ, BCL, Sony, tied with LCW, PG, TH, SS, NTM
    9) Simon = 4 points; lost to LD, LCW, CJ, BCL, PG, TH, tied with Sony, Chen Long; won NTM

    10) NTM = 1 points; only tied with Chen Long 0:0

    1 MAS[MAS] Chong Wei LEE5015281866.857813
    2 DEN[DEN] Peter Hoeg GADE692670175.11414
    3 CHN[CHN] Jin CHEN5159266502.200410
    4 INA[INA] Taufik HIDAYAT1033762791.713
    5 CHN[CHN] Dan LIN5090660033.9758
    6 INA[INA] Simon SANTOSO5159956790.519113
    7 CHN[CHN] Chunlai Bao512745469411
    8 VIE[VIE] Tien Minh NGUYEN1410754624.79414
    9CHN[CHN] Long CHEN7578753223.149513
    10INA[INA] Sony DWI KUNCORO5042752572.477712

    which is more accurate? you don't need anyone to tell you if you really watch badminton? Even you don't like Chinese, that's fine. But do you really think NTM is a better player than Sony? Give me a break!
    No, but i think Chen Long at the moment is better and should be ranked higher than Peter Gade and Bao Chun Lai. What do you say to that?

    Here's why you cant rank them like that:
    Firstly, they dont play equal number of match.
    Secondly, they have not been around the same time either, so age and performance may affect the H2H record

    At football season, you have same number of matches played for all team at the same season/time. The way you ranked these baddy players are far from that fundamental.

    BTW Im Chinese, so its not about i like Chinese or not
    Last edited by Yoppy; 09-16-2010 at 06:54 PM.

  11. #96
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Many people say that "Statistics Never Lie But Liars Use Statistics".

    Even in this discussion, why want to use only selected statistics?

    Of course, if we have already made up our minds on who is the No.2 player, then we can gather enough selected statistics to back our claims.

    Therefore, I do not like to use the H2H statistics to our rank players. This is because if we use the H2H statistics to our rank players, and if we focus on LD, then LD, our current top player, would be ranked as No.2. It's because LD's H2H records against all players are good, except for LD's H2H record against CHJ.

    To me, LD is a much better player than CHJ.

    So why use the H2H records that can make CHJ appearing stronger than LD?
    .
    - Who is or are the liars?? who are you referring to?..All the thread originator was asking is who do we think is the no.2 player behind LD (because he's given the reasons why LD is no.1). What s/he used is fine and i have no problem with that.
    - For the question "why want to use only selected statistics?", you gotta ask the thread starter why use selected stats, in this case the H2H.
    - Yes, the thread starter most likely based the no.2 rank player based on the H2H. But he still has a bit of question on whether it's CJ or LCW. That is my guess and that is most likely the route s/he too to find the stats. For me, it sounds legit.
    - Please find or show us LD vs. CHJ's H2H record on BWF website. I've given the link above.
    - If you don't like to use H2H record to rank the players, then what would you use??..
    - I don't quite understand what you're trying to point out in your last sentence/question...As far as i can see, only a few are bringing up CHJ's lone win vs. LD as a big deal..To me, it's irrelevant and shouldn't be used at all..Further, CHJ is not even ranked in the top 50 MS Players..
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    If you cant take CHJ then you should not take the whole H2H thing seriously either. Its simply means that although H2H record can somehow be useful, it has some flaw and cant be use as a single perimeter, especially when determining the "BEST" player.

    No, he does not have. And thats exactly why H2H record is not reliable. I can argue also because all top 10 player did not play in equal numbers therefore its not 100% just.
    So whats the minimum number?? 2??
    So if you beat me 3 times and i beat you 3 times, I still be ranked higher than you because i beat my neighbour 100 times???? I see no logic at all....sorry

    I mentioned my opinion and i wont say it again
    - Please show me/us CHJ vs. LD's H2H record on BWF website. I've given the link earlier.
    - What do you mean i should not take the whole H2H seriously? I'm using it as a basis for my argument on why i think LCW is ranked no.2 (that's what the thread starter was asking).
    - What kind of flaw(s) in using the H2H record are you referring to?..
    - What do you mean the H2H records is not reliable? To me, it shows undisputed facts. To me, it does not matter if all the top 10 MS players didn't play against each other in the same amt. of tourneys. They don't have to.
    - I already mentioned at minimum 3 matches. You can go with 2 matches if you want. But it's gotta be more than once.
    - If simply using H2H records (which the thread starter also used), then the example of you beating me 3x and me beating you 3x but you winning 1000 times more vs. another opponent is valid. Why not, you have a better overall record against the other players than me.
    - So, no answer to this question? : So, what is your suggestion(s) or other way(s) to determine who's the no.2 player (as the thread starter originally intended and wanted to know)??..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-16-2010 at 07:02 PM.

  12. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - Please show me/us CHJ vs. LD's H2H record on BWF website. I've given the link earlier.
    - What do you mean i should not take the whole H2H seriously? I'm using it as a basis for my argument on why i think LCW is ranked no.2 (that's what the thread starter was asking).
    I love arguing with you man...... I already said if you want to rank them based on H2H its fine, but no more than that. You get me??

    And to me its not what the thread starter wanted to know, he wants our opinion who is the 2nd BEST player after LD. And he use H2H record as a single perimeter.

    So which side do you fall under???

    BTW thread starter already mentioned to forget about H2H and to use our subjective sense, and let him know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - What kind of flaw(s) in using the H2H record are you referring to?..
    - What do you mean the H2H records is not reliable? To me, it shows undisputed facts. To me, it does not matter if all the top 10 MS players didn't play against each other in the same amt. of tourneys. They don't have to.
    Ofcourse they have to if you want at least get a fair assesment. I can always argue for eg. should TH played more matches before againts CJ his H2H can be better.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - I already mentioned at minimum 3 matches. You can go with 2 matches if you want. But it's gotta be more than once.
    Why 3 not 10 or 20??? Is it becoming subjective now?? H2H ranking is based on your subjective opinion HAHAHAHA you make me laugh
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - If simply using H2H records (which the thread starter also used), then the example of you beating me 3x and me beating you 3x but you winning 1000 times more vs. another opponent is valid. Why not, you have a better overall record against the other players than me.
    But my neighbour are all grandmas, you would have also beaten them if you played them 1000 times. Now you see why they have to play the same number of times????????
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - So, no answer to this question? : So, what is your suggestion(s) or other way(s) to determine who's the no.2 player (as the thread starter originally intended and wanted to know)??..
    SInce when it becomes a habit of you missing out on what people said

  13. #98
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    I love arguing with you man...... I already said if you want to rank them based on H2H its fine, but no more than that. You get me??
    ...
    So which side do you fall under???

    BTW thread starter already mentioned to forget about H2H and to use our subjective sense, and let him know.
    ...
    Why 3 not 10 or 20??? Is it becoming subjective now?? H2H ranking is based on your subjective opinion HAHAHAHA you make me laugh
    But my neighbour are all grandmas, you would have also beaten them if you played them 1000 times. Now you see why they have to play the same number of times????????
    SInce when it becomes a habit of you missing out on what people said
    - Sorry, where did you mention to me "if you want to rank them based on H2H its fine, but no more than that"??..
    - I've already mentioned numerous times which side i fall under, even prior to this post. It's very obvious.
    - So, based on your subjective sense, you go by Rudy Hartono then LD then TH...etc.??..Has Rudy H. played against LD and TH before??..Please explain how you came to that list?..
    - Playing against grandmas??..let's be reasonable and focus on the top 10 MS players.
    - As long as it's more than once. You can play 2 or 3 or 10 or 20 or 30 times. But let's give a reasonable number.
    - Seriously, i still don't see your other suggestion(s) or way(s) to determine whether a player is ranked no.2 or not...please show me..
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    ...
    Here's why you cant rank them like that:
    Firstly, they dont play equal number of match.
    Secondly, they have not been around the same time either, so age and performance may affect the H2H record
    ...
    ..reality is, we won't be able to get equal number of matches between all the top MS players, whether they've been around the same time or not.
    Thus we go by what is presented to us by how many matches the players have played against each other. I certainly think that's fine, as long as they've played more than once.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-16-2010 at 07:44 PM.

  14. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    The OP has changed his mind and said for us to forget the H2H thing and just want us to say who do we think the 2nd best player after LD. This is so wrong, how does he conclude in the first place that LD is the best? Maybe LD is (and I think he is), but i hope he did not come to that conclusion because of the H2H record
    Because he had struggle long enough that LD was no more the WR#1 player thus the existent of this thread in the very first place.

    When the OP changes his topic line over and over again, its because he did not had solid factual materials to back his claims. This was obvious when some of you cross-reference and counter his arguments. Its all his own virtual fantasy if you allow me to put it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    I wont give any credit to that, its full of flaws. For a start, they did not play the same number of times.
    Yes! You, myself and even the OP and his sidekick knew about this but they chose to remain at the dark side. Kudos for their persistency.

    Some may even acquired an immune system that all logic are no longer valid and instead uses their primary weapon (going round in circles is the call of the day) whenever they failed to put things into perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - Sorry, where did you mention to me "if you want to rank them based on H2H its fine, but no more than that"??..
    Do i have to mention it only to you?? I dont understand
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - I've already mentioned numerous times which side i fall under, even prior to this post. It's very obvious.
    As far as i can see, you as bias/confused as the thread starter, unless you can proof me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - So, based on your subjective sense, you go by Rudy Hartono then LD then TH...etc.??..Has Rudy H. played against LD and TH before??..Please explain how you came to that list?..
    Its my SUBJECTIVE for CHRIST sake, do I have to use this H2H record??? I ussually phone God and asked him about it, thats how i came to that list.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..reality is, we won't be able to get equal number of matches between all the top MS players, whether they've been around the same time or not.
    Thus we go by what is presented to us by how many matches the players have played against each other. I certainly think that's fine, as long as they've played more than once.
    ....so the reality is we can NOT rely on H2H record alone

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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Many people say that "Statistics Never Lie But Liars Use Statistics".
    ...
    Even in this discussion, why want to use only selected statistics?
    So why use the H2H records that can make CHJ appearing stronger than LD?
    .
    I believe your thinking stuck somewhere. You mentioned many times that CHJ would ranked #1, CHJ would ranked ahead of LD, CHJ stronger than LD based on H2H, but what you said was not true. How to understand statistics is the key for you to solve your

    The H2H should be viewed statistically, even assume CHJ h2h 1:0 against LD (the fact is 0:0 without counting trival games), but CHJ lost to too many other players, how come he can ranked before LD, your wrong reasoning resulted in wrong conclusions. He's not stronger than LD at all.

    Same thing for all the other players. CJ just lost a taiwan player, their h2h is 0:1, does this put that unknown taiwan player ahead of CJ in the h2h ranking? or justify CJ is a weaker player than that guy? definitely not.

    when Taufik first played Chen Long, Du PY from China, Taufik lost both, that didn't mean Taufik suddenly weaker than CL or DPY. Same thing apply to LCW vs CL where CL won their first encounters.

    You got to read statistics statistically, if you just stick to 1 single data, you will definitely get lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspire View Post
    Because he had struggle long enough that LD was no more the WR#1 player thus the existent of this thread in the very first place.

    When the OP changes his topic line over and over again, its because he did not had solid factual materials to back his claims. This was obvious when some of you cross-reference and counter his arguments. Its all his own virtual fantasy if you allow me to put it that way.
    virtual fantasy??? lol thats a good one


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspire View Post
    Yes! You, myself and even the OP and his sidekick knew about this but they chose to remain at the dark side. Kudos for their persistency.

    Some may even acquired an immune system that all logic are no longer valid and instead uses their primary weapon (going round in circles is the call of the day) whenever they failed to put things into perspective.
    You make me feel like a hungry wolve......haahaha

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