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  1. #103
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    I got confused why and what people here arguing about.

    exactly as Yoppy pointed out, I started this thread with the extremly bias opinion to ask for you guys biased opinion back for the list of the best player in your mind. You don't have to agree with my list, or agree with my method/reasoning, just post your list of your ranking. Attacking other people's method doesn't make much sense, if you disagree, just simply give your power ranking for the current active players.

    by the way, the title for this thread when I started was "who's the 2nd best active MS players now after WC?" unfortunately, the title was changed by mod not me, which made my posts sound unrelevant. Sorry for that.
    Last edited by freelast; 09-16-2010 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #104
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    ...
    As far as i can see, you as bias/confused as the thread starter, unless you can proof me wrong.
    ...
    ....so the reality is we can NOT rely on H2H record alone
    - I'm biased??..Hardly. I only use the H2H record as my basis, there's no disputing those records. If CJ has a better overall H2H records vs. the other top 10 MS players, i'd put him as no.2. If TH has a better overall H2H records vs. the other top 10 MS players, i'd put him as no.2. If CL has a better overall H2H records vs. the other top 10 MS players, i'd put him as no.2...But what is the reality??..LCW is no.2 because he has a better overall H2H record vs. the top 10 MS players except vs. LD.
    Very simple.
    - For me, to determine who's no.1 or who's no.2 from the current top MS players, i can certainly rely on the H2H records alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    I got confused why and what people here arguing about.

    exactly as Yoppy pointed out, I started this thread with the extremly bias opinion to ask for you guys biased opinion back for the list of the best player in your mind. You don't have to agree with my list, or agree with my method/reasoning, just post your list of your ranking. Attacking other people's method doesn't make much sense, if you disagree, just simply give your power ranking for the current active players.

    by the way, the title for this thread when I started was "who's the 2nd best active MS players now after WC?" unfortunately, the title was changed by mod not me, which made my posts sound unrelevant. Sorry for that.
    - The argument stems from only a few, i'd say 3 or 4 people, who question the method of determining who's no.2 player behind LD. Basically thought it's a "joke" to use the H2H record as a sole basis, as you've brought them up. Even by the way you created the list (post #6) from the tabulated points is questioned.
    - Yes, i thought the title of the thread has shifted from your original query.
    - If indeed your intention now is to have a subjective & biased opinion, with no specific time range and no basis for the list, then you will get names like Rudy Hartono thrown in the list...i hope that's not what you're really after, is it??..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-16-2010 at 08:33 PM.

  3. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    You got to read statistics statistically, if you just stick to 1 single data, you will definitely get lost.
    Please make up your mind and tell us, which one do you really mean????

    1. LD is world's current BEST player, and wanting to find out who's no.2?

    or

    2. Use H2H record to RANK each of top 10 players based solely on their H2H record

    For me no.2 is fine, but not no.1

    I asked this because:
    1. You can not use H2H record to say for eg. LCW is world 2nd best player
    2. H2H record is a record, it does/may not reflect the current condition. Eg. LCW maybe better than LD today, just because LCW has a bad record againt LD in the past does not mean he wont be winning againts LD today
    3. H2H can be more accurate and justify if player played each other the same time. We all know thats not the case, so H2H how can we confidently say that looking at H2H record only is sufficient??
    Last edited by Yoppy; 09-16-2010 at 08:36 PM.

  4. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post

    - The argument stems from only a few, i'd say 3 or 4 people, who question the method of determining who's no.2 player behind LD. Basically thought it's a "joke" to use the H2H record as a sole basis, as you've brought them up. Even by the way you created the list (post #6) from the tabulated points is questioned.
    - Yes, i thought the title of the thread has shifted from your original query.
    - If indeed your intention now is to have a subjective & biased opinion, with no specific time range and no basis for the list, then you will get names like Rudy Hartono thrown in the list...i hope that's not what you're really after, is it??..
    Actually Rudy Hartono popped up in the list as the best active player, was not what I after for, because that's the list someone got from his god, not human being's thinking. That's not supposed to be biased because it's his god's words. What I am looking for is a biased human being's real thinking.

  5. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    I got confused why and what people here arguing about.

    exactly as Yoppy pointed out, I started this thread with the extremly bias opinion to ask for you guys biased opinion back for the list of the best player in your mind. You don't have to agree with my list, or agree with my method/reasoning, just post your list of your ranking. Attacking other people's method doesn't make much sense, if you disagree, just simply give your power ranking for the current active players.
    I did gave you my list.
    IMO your innitial post can offensive enough for many. For example, how you assume that LD is the wolrd's best player. There are tons of criteria out there that can knock out LD easily as the best. Dont get me wrong LD is my fav player, i admit it. And im also not here to attack you personally (as you never attack me personally). But the bottom line is, the whole thread can be misintrepeted that we can look at only at the H2H record and say "Thats it, its him the no.1 , no.2 and so on"

  6. #108
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    ..the way i see it:
    We can use H2H record to RANK each of top 10 players based solely on their H2H record and at the same time figure out who's the world's current BEST player and who's no.2?..(killing 2 birds with one stone)..

  7. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    .....

    1. You can not use H2H record to say for eg. LCW is world 2nd best player
    2. H2H record is a record, it does/may not reflect the current condition. Eg. LCW maybe better than LD today, just because LCW has a bad record againt LD in the past does not mean he wont be winning againts LD today
    3. H2H can be more accurate and justify if player played each other the same time. We all know thats not the case, so H2H how can we confidently say that looking at H2H record only is sufficient??
    That's the basic difference between you and me.

    I encourage people say what they think and what they believe

    ...... while you disallow people say anything that's against what you think and you believe.

  8. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - I'm biased??..Hardly. I only use the H2H record as my basis, there's no disputing those records. If CJ has a better overall H2H records vs. the other top 10 MS players, i'd put him as no.2. If TH has a better overall H2H records vs. the other top 10 MS players, i'd put him as no.2. If CL has a better overall H2H records vs. the other top 10 MS players, i'd put him as no.2...But what is the reality??..LCW is no.2 because he has a better overall H2H record vs. the top 10 MS players except vs. LD.
    Very simple.
    - For me, to determine who's no.1 or who's no.2 from the current top MS players, i can certainly rely on the H2H records alone.
    Going round in a circle lala..allalallalla I did tell you Mr.C if you want to RANK base on H2H thats fine!! What are we arguing here??? I thought we gone through that

  9. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..the way i see it:
    We can use H2H record to RANK each of top 10 players based solely on their H2H record and at the same time figure out who's the world's current BEST player and who's no.2?..(killing 2 birds with one stone)..
    Sorry, i dont agree with that

  10. #112
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    Going round in a circle lala..allalallalla I did tell you Mr.C if you want to RANK base on H2H thats fine!! What are we arguing here??? I thought we gone through that
    ..yes, see my post #108..

  11. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..yes, see my post #108..
    yeah then see my post 111 just above you

  12. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    1. You can not use H2H record to say for eg. LCW is world 2nd best player
    2......??
    By the way, I didn't say LCW is world 2nd best player

    Please read my post carefully, in fact, I was wondering whether LCW still the 2nd best player. I thought Chen Jin might be the 2nd best player while LCW dropped to the 3rd.

    The other wrong conclusion you draw about me is the usage of H2H. I said according to H2H, LCW might still be the 2nd, but based on the big time winner like Chen Jin (the current WC champion, current Olympic medalist, All england title holder...) he might overtake LCW in some people's subjectve personal power ranking.

  13. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    That's the basic difference between you and me.

    I encourage people say what they think and what they believe

    ...... while you disallow people say anything that's against what you think and you believe.
    hahaha thats funny, first you said you encourage people to say what they believe, and i follow your advice....then this You may as well tell me to shut up

  14. #116
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    ...because that's the list someone got from his god, not human being's thinking. That's not supposed to be biased because it's his god's words. What I am looking for is a biased human being's real thinking.
    exactly as Yoppy pointed out, I started this thread with the extremly bias opinion to ask for you guys biased opinion back for the list of the best player in your mind. You don't have to agree with my list, or agree with my method/reasoning, just post your list of your ranking. Attacking other people's method doesn't make much sense, if you disagree, just simply give your power ranking for the current active players.


    Any international association or federation evolves a rankings system after very careful consideration of many criteria that a player is eventually judged by on a continuous basis. Now, I don't know about all the criteria, and the point weightages applied to different criteria, but a lot of statistical analysis would be performed, and the formulae wll be devised only after accepting the recommendations from a board or committee of capable, experienced and very knowledgeable people who take a lot of time to evolve their recommendations in consensus.

    Let me repeat: from a board or committee of capable, experienced and very knowledgeable people who take a lot of time to evolve their recommendations in consensus.

    What you are suggesting is not just pure anarchy, but an invitation to Grade 5 pissing contest. No merit, no justice; no objectivity.

  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    By the way, I didn't say LCW is world 2nd best player

    Please read my post carefully, in fact, I was wondering whether LCW still the 2nd best player. I thought Chen Jin might be the 2nd best player while LCW dropped to the 3rd.

    The other wrong conclusion you draw about me is the usage of H2H. I said according to H2H, LCW might still be the 2nd, but based on the big time winner like Chen Jin (the current WC champion, current Olympic medalist, All england title holder...) he might overtake LCW in some people's subjectve personal power ranking.
    No.... you read my post carefully buddy, i dont care about whos no 1 or 2 or 3. Its not about that.

    Secondly i did not draw the conclusion like you mentioned, if you read my post carefully then you know what i mean. Or you can also ask ctjcad, he knows what i mean (although he does not agree)

  16. #118
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Do not use the H2H statistics to our rank players; it can be misleading

    Quote Originally Posted by freelast View Post
    I believe your thinking stuck somewhere. You mentioned many times that CHJ would ranked #1, CHJ would ranked ahead of LD, CHJ stronger than LD based on H2H, but what you said was not true. How to understand statistics is the key for you to solve your

    The H2H should be viewed statistically, even assume CHJ h2h 1:0 against LD (the fact is 0:0 without counting trival games)......

    Same thing for all the other players. CJ just lost a taiwan player, their h2h is 0:1, does this put that unknown taiwan player ahead of CJ in the h2h ranking? or justify CJ is a weaker player than that guy? definitely not.

    when Taufik first played Chen Long, Du PY from China, Taufik lost both, that didn't mean Taufik suddenly weaker than CL or DPY. Same thing apply to LCW vs CL where CL won their first encounters.

    You got to read statistics statistically, if you just stick to 1 single data, you will definitely get lost.
    .
    That is why I have posted "I do not like to use the H2H statistics to our rank players".

    May be I should rephrase my comment to "Do not use the H2H statistics to our rank players; it can be misleading".
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    Many people say that "Statistics Never Lie But Liars Use Statistics".

    Even in this discussion, why want to use only selected statistics?

    Of course, if we have already made up our minds on who is the No.2 player, then we can gather enough selected statistics to back our claims.

    Therefore, I do not like to use the H2H statistics to our rank players. This is because if we use the H2H statistics to our rank players, and if we focus on LD, then LD, our current top player, would be ranked as No.2. It's because LD's H2H records against all players are good, except for LD's H2H record against CHJ.

    To me, LD is a much better player than CHJ.

    So why use the H2H records that can make CHJ appearing stronger than LD?

  17. #119
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    hahaha thats funny, first you said you encourage people to say what they believe, and i follow your advice....then this You may as well tell me to shut up
    ..i don't think freelast is suggesting you to shut up or stop posting; he's merely showing the difference between his intention and yours...

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