Double return serve

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by bayanbaru, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. bayanbaru

    bayanbaru Regular Member

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    In doubles where is the most advantage location when returning a low serve?
     
  2. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    1. back to the server body/head
    2. push back to side line (left or right) just pass the server and way infront of the back player
    3. little push to the net (shuttle heading vertically downward when the server need to return)
    4. quick flat drive back to the back corners
     
  3. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Agree with Yoppy.

    And most importantly, in order to do your returns effectively, you'll have to get to the bird when it's still high, before it starts falling below the net.
     
  4. Line & Length

    Line & Length Regular Member

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    As with all situations, the earlier you hit the return, the more (especially attacking) options you have.

    If you are able to hit the shuttle downwards (i.e. shuttle is still a few inches higher than the net tape) all 4 of Yoppy's options are on.

    However, if facing a good serve, the shuttle may already be below the tape. Then, anything but option 3 may sit-up a bit too much & put you under pressure.

    Last word of warning for men playing mixed. If you try to boss the opposition's serve, any weak returns will be hit to your (vacant) rear-court.
     
  5. nprince

    nprince Regular Member

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    Excellent advice-Let me elaborate.

    If the serve is loose, you must kill it by a tap or smash. But if you are able to do so at will, consider changing whom you play with and time to move to next level.

    In good mens doubles, don't dream about serves that you can kill. Watch videos of how Lars Passke, tony Gunawan, Cai Yun or KKK serves. The serve will just brush the net start falling down below the tape as soon as it passes. Here your primary challenge is to avoid lift & thus giving attack to opponents (Having said that, lift is a much better option than playing a weak push or risky drive).

    In this situation could be, a straight net shot (drop) or angled drops to either front corners. These 2 are relatively high percentage shots where you may not loose attack. If you play to the corner, immediately follow the shuttle to intercept any weak return and thus forcing your opponents to lift.

    NP
     
  6. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    There are generally 4 types of returning a good doubles serve. As to which type to use will depend on each situation.
    At the very top level the return is taken as early as possible and as near to the net as possible. This applies to all 4 types of return.
    The net tumble or net drop return is perhaps the most widely used by top players, i.e. the current Asian Games men doubles between China and S. Korea.
    Another return is to hit it to the two back corners. The third is to place it to the sideline between the server and his partner with the shuttle travelling in a downward movement, as an upward movement becomes suicidal. The last type is to push the return towards the body of the server's partner, never the server. Pushing it towards the server will get you a nasty reply from the server who may be bending his knees to "snap your head back". Pushing it into the body of the server's partner has the advantage of the partner being visually blocked by the server thus slowing his reaction time and also restricting his hitting space.
     
  7. nprince

    nprince Regular Member

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    I do not agree with this because,

    Servers partner would be obviously standing further back-He has more time to react.
    If the server is ready to intercept pushes to him, he should be able to do that better against pushes to his partner which is within his reach. It may work in lower level of doubles.
    NP
     
  8. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    No, these are the standard 4 returns to handle a very good short double serve that are taught in almost all the top badminton national associations. You may want to check with Badminton India.
    I am talking about returns to a very good short doubles serve, not a bad or mediocre short serve. Or you can try Badminton England and buy some dvds from them.
     
  9. Line & Length

    Line & Length Regular Member

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    Straight push is an option, though depends upon how good a serve it is and how good the receiver is. An elite player can take the serve early, maximising the downward angle available to them. If done correctly, a straight push will cramp the server's partner for space & force a lift or even a weak return.

    However, for the bottom 90% of players on this forum (of which I include myself), an overly aggressive push return will result in a push drop either side of the (off-balance) receiver. From there, the receiver's team will struggle to play an attacking shot.

    The other issue with non-elite players trying to jump on a serve early is that they leave themselves vulnerable to a flick serve.

    Last (& pedantic) point. All 'short' serves should be left alone because they're going out! We're discussing the return of a 'low' serve.
     
  10. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Also a good doubles low or short serve should not skim the net because skimming the net means the shuttle is rather flattish with a long travel. The best low or short doubles serve should go up steeply to reach the top of the net and then it must drop immediately. The "peak" should be acute and steep instead of being flattish and net-skimming.
    Yes, pushing a service return to the server's partner must aim for the body and never towards either side of his body, the latter will land you in hot water.
    If your footwork is good the receiver will have no fear about the flick serve, even when he takes the serve right at the front service line, provided he makes no false start at jumping on the serve. A flick serve takes time to drop and you can always reach it before it drops to below shoulder height. Even if you take a flick serve late you can fall back on hitting a very high return clear. If you read a flick serve well you you will get an easy point with a smash back at the receiver.
     
  11. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    taneepak, I have to respectfully disagree with regard to the low serve skimming the net or not. I would start by agreeing with you that a flat serve is not a very good idea, but I would say that with ANY serve it is possible with practise to hit a serve where the bottom feather of the shuttle will clip the net, making the cork go downwards, and thus actually the serve will fall slightly shorter than before. I have seen this done in professional mens doubles matches on numerous occasions.

    Assuming that when it skims the net, it does not land out, what we have in fact done is "create" a different downwards angle - it is no longer the normal curve a shuttle will take, (which I agree with you, is possible to make the serve go downwards immediately after the tape). Because of the slight disturbance of the shuttles flight path, the opponent is likely to be SLIGHTLY later in picking up the flight of the shuttle, as it has quickly changed to a slightly different flight path, and is passing the net as low as possible and falling immediately afterwards. Note: I am not saying this is what we SHOULD practise, I am simply saying that its not so clear cut as to whether a serve skimming the tape is a good thing or a bad thing :)

    I know this thread is about service returns, but I thought I would just add that thought about serves :) Lars Paaske has, in my opinion, the best serve, and his is a relatively flat service - so perhaps taneepak, as long as the serves are good quality, any trajectory is fine :)


    Just to reiterate what I have read above, with which I generally agree:
    In my opinion, it is not a good idea to push a return at the server or the servers partner from a GOOD low serve. By definition, a good low serve HAS to be received below the net, if just slightly. This means you cannot hit downwards at the server, and the best you can do is hit flat at the servers partner. But flat means it goes straight to his ready racket... you may have restricted his hitting space, but its still going straight to him! Worse, his partner - the server - is probably crouching and ready to intercept your push - better make it a drive!

    If you cannot take the shuttle at at least tape height, any return you play IS by definition a lift, even though it is possible to get the shuttle going downwards after it passes the net - but it still has to lift to the net height to pass over the net in the first place!

    A drive to the back boxes is a good return of serve.

    A net shot CAN be a good return of serve - as long as your opponent isn't going to take it off the tape.

    A push to the sides into the midcourt - after the server, before his partner, is an excellent shot as long as it is played QUICKLY - no slow or upwards shots please :)

    Good discussion guys.

    Matt
     
  12. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Careful. This is the sort of coaches' definition-mangling that confuses the bejeezus out of players. I know what point you're getting at -- and it's a good point -- but overloading shot definitions is a sketchy way to express it.

    A lift is a lift. A net shot, although it usually travels upwards initially, is not a lift. The same is true for drives and pushes: they are not lifts.

    For that matter: a push is not a drive. There's a trend for describing "pushes to the rearcourt", especially as a service return; I don't like this, because it mangles the difference between pushes and drives. We should be able to say "push" or "drive" without needing to qualify it; this "push as drive" trend only serves to replace one word with three.

    Of course, these divisions are somewhat arbitrary. At some point, an upwards drive is the same as a very flat lift. Some ambiguity is inevitable; but the ambiguity is increased when you overload a shot definition to make a point or express a mindset.
     
    #12 Gollum, Nov 16, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
  13. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Gollum, I take your point about lifts - I will make sure that I don't make that mistake again. What concerns me is that this initial hitting upwards required to get the shuttle over the net (which i shouldn't have called a lift - duly noted :) ) is extremely dangerous if not done quickly, because you ARE giving the serving side a chance to kill your shot IF they are ready - which they could be!

    I saw a county veteran playing against some of the county squad (doubles). He served well, and on numerous occasions was able to intercept their return, whether it be a push/drive/net reply they tried, he would kill the shot simply because their shots had to initially go upwards to get over the net, and he was ready and waiting for it with fantastic racket control.

    So in summary, you are right, my use of the word lift was wrong, however, I hope this has not overly confused the idea I am trying (and perhaps failing) to convey.
     
  14. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    As you say, every return of a (very) good low serve must travel somewhat upwards at first, because the shuttle will be lower than the net tape at the moment of contact. As the receiver, it's important to be aware of this.

    It's particularly dangerous when you're playing a push return (to the midcourt tramlines). This is an excellent return if taken early; but if taken slightly later, it can be disastrous: your push now makes a leisurely upwards loop before dropping down, which gives the server a good chance to kill it.

    Against a very skilful server, some variety of returns is necessary. The server will adapt to cover your favourite returns and intercept them. This is a big problem if you can only do one shot!
     
  15. nprince

    nprince Regular Member

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    I tottally agree with the points & tips given by Gollum, Mseeley & and Line&length

    A good low serve will peack out just before the net tape, skim or brush the net & land very close to the T. Against such a good serve, your options are limited. Many push shots & other variations would be suicidal if your oponents are agressive. They will try to intercept any bird that passes within their reach.

    I have seen many players succesfully making deceptive flicks-but the surprize element wears out sooner than later. The standard successful replies to the very good low serve that we play are,

    1. A net shot,straight or angled, if you can reach the bird very close to the net tape. If you do this and cover the replies, you can force the opponents to lift.
    2. High and loopy lift to the rear court.

    Please note that I am discussing about a very good low serve. If the serve is slightly week, you have many more possible returns. BUt against a very good low serve, all other replies would become low percentage shots.
    NP
     

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