Most Effective way to smash

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by kevinboyz, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. kevinboyz

    kevinboyz Regular Member

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    I've watched a lot of videos and read around a lot and to do a strong and effective clear/smash, you must use the forehand pronation technique. However, there are the occasionally post that states that the wrist the what adds power to the smash. Can I just get a clarification on that subject?
     
  2. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    A slight wrist snap/rebound action at the end of the pronation is important for the strike, if that is what you mean.

    However, it is not pure flexion, as that will stress your wrist joint and does nothing for power.
     
  3. eugene2110

    eugene2110 Regular Member

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    Just for thoughts... I noticed alot of professional players gather their power and strength by generating smashing power from legs to waist up. It is a very simple but difficult to master technique. Had demonstration from pro but fail to adapt during play especially when you get too excited to smash for kill....
     
  4. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    The source of all effective power, including the smash, comes from a strong body core. This is because all movement in the body originates there. The core is an area around your trunk and pelvis and is also where your center of gravity is. Without a strong core no technique will generate enough power.
    This is the reason why ex-world champions who have seen their best years have lost most of their power and fluidity.
     
  5. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    I can do no better than point you in the direction of lin dan and lee chong wei smashing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKC1Depuf6Q

    When they make contact with their smash, their WRISTS are basically neutral ( neither cocked nor uncocked ). Therefore it was the FOREARM rotation (pronation) that delivered the FINAL burst of power.

    We must first realise that the wrist is a joint, and thus cannot produce power. What most people think of a "wrist movement" (probably in those other posts you are talking about) is ACTUALLY a forearm movement. A lot of people refer to the forearm movement as a wrist movement. The wrist does move, but only as a result of being attached to the end of the forearm ;)

    As visor says, there is an important "rebound" action involved in smashing, but this is not a wrist snap, but an immediate reversal of forearm pronation (supination!) to focus all of your strength into a single point (a bit like cracking a whip involves suddenly stopping).

    As eugene2110 says correctly, some power is generated at the very beginning of a smash in the legs, as they "load" themselves. This power is transferred into a rotation of the hips, which is then transferred (as taneepak mentions - the core is so important) into the abdominal muscles as they rotate, which goes then into shoulder rotation, which brings forwards your elbow as your racket drops behind you neck/back/shoulder/head. From this position, the abs contract fiercely, and at the same time you extend at your elbow AND pronate the forearm in a clear SNAPPING action. This description comes roughly from an instructional video by Peter Rasmussen - so its very accurate.

    So in answer to your question: the wrist is NOT involved, most people call the very final motion, which is forearm rotation, as a wrist snap, but it is not. It only uses forearm pronation and elbow extension for power (in the final phase). However, as others have said, power comes from the whole body, and is co-ordinated by the abs.

    Hope that clears things up?
     
  6. t3tsubo

    t3tsubo Regular Member

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    excellent post I agree with all points. When you see lin dan jumping from one side of the court to the other to cut of a fast clear with what looks like a simple flick of the wrist but having almost the same power of a full smash - that is actually the perfected transfer of power that fluidly starts from his legs and gets transfered and amplified through his body (especially his core) before being released in barely 30cm of forearm motion. Simply beautiful to watch.

    as for the most effective way to smash - it is simply to do it at a pace your opponent is not expecting at that point in the rally, when your opponent is nto expecting it or prepared for it. This often means that you cannot do a hugely obvious jumpsmash as highly skilled players can return anything if they are in position and ready for it (like LCW). The fluidity of being able to smash that hard without the obvious jumpsmash motion that is so popular is chiefly used to be able to smash when an opponent is not ready/expecting it.
     
  7. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I think there is some confusion about the use of the wrist and the use of pronation and supination. Of course the wrist is used and that is why Asian players, despite their smaller physical size, can hit faster and harder than western players because in Asia the wrist is emphasized. There is no way you can hit hard and well with pronation alone and with a neutral wrist.
    Proper use of the wrist includes in its complete cycle pronation or supination. Just look at every smash or clear or even a net kill in slow motion and you will see the wrist plays a vital role. Every LD's or LCW's smash uses the wrist and pronation-the wrist is bent backwards and then uncocks as it rotates forward (pronation) for the shuttle contact. Without any backwards bending of the wrist, as suggested by others that the wrist should be neutral with only pronation to carry the power, the shot will lack sting and power.
    The wrist comes in even in the singles high serve because pronation here alone without the wrist bending with not send the serve high and full length.
     
  8. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Perhaps you would care to offer a video? Showing where this use of wrist is? Is it in the video I posted above done in slow motion for power smashes? I cannot see anything except an ALMOST neutral wrist, but the wrist BARELY moves at all. Do NOT on the other hand start claiming that "westerners" can't play as well because we don't use our wrists. The instruction I posted above is FROM Peter Rasmussen, who I seem to remember destroyed many many eastern players with his "limited" technique?

    I understand you are saying the wrist plays a vital role, but please explain MORE. The wrist moves from neutral (arm and racket 90 degrees) to slightly further than neutral (arm and racket about 135 degrees) and then back again. This is hardly the wrist uncocking, because for the wrist to fully uncock, would require that it finishes with your hand at a 90 degrees to your arm. This is certainly NEVER seen in any professional overhead. Perhaps you would care to explain your point?

    That I can tell, all of the shots you have mentioned use forearm rotation for power, not the uncocking of the wrist.
     
  9. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    MSeeley,

    I think what taneepak means is that as the player is winding up for a smash with racket shoulder back, elbow flexed and forearm supinated, the angle btw the back of the hand and the back of the forearm is not 0 degrees. It is around 45 degrees: the wrist is "cocked" at this point. Then after impact this angle changes to around 135 due to follow thru of the snapping motion.

    The wrist motion is not purely supination/pronation; there is some 90 degree of flexion involved.

    You can see it in the "compilation of smashes" video on YouTube by thejym, where there is slowmo of both LD and LCW.
     
  10. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    The best test for the use of the wrist is the backhand clear. I am sure you can get access to a video of the Techniques dvd from Badminton England showing the backhand clear by Nathan Robertson and also another one showing China's Zhao Jianhwa's backhand, and you can see the difference between the two. Zhao's, despite the fact he is 2 decades older, backhand clear is a class above Robertson's. The difference is the wrist.

    Let me put it this way. All power shots and even some soft shots require the skillful use of the wrist. The use of the wrist requires that the player must cock back his wrist for all shots, and forehand strokes require different cocking of the wrist from backhand strokes. Cocking back the wrist means "loading", "tensioning" or having a "sprung" wrist. From this cocked state the player then in a timely manner uncocks the wrist for the shuttle contact, at which time the wrist and arm appear to straighten, hence giving the appearance of a neutral wrist.

    For forehand strokes cocking requires that your wrist is loaded or sprung with a bend backwards and in such a way that any forward movement of the arm can and must travel in a rotational manner, and in the forehand it is pronation. In other words cocking of the wrist for forehand strokes require you to bend your wrist backwards but in a "sprung" or tensioned" state, i.e, thw wrist is "twisted" or rotated outwards. When you start the forward stroke and begins uncocking the wrist this forces the wrist to turn inwards. It therefore cannot turn in any other direction because that would unbalance your stroke. In a way it is similar to raising your left hand pointing towards the shuttle, which then forces your right shoulder to move back so you can do a clear more effectively. By putting up your left hand towards the shuttle, it is physically impossible for you to not move your right shoulder back.

    The same applies to the backhand where the wrist plays an even more important role. For the backhand the wrist is cocked back by twisting or rotating the wrist inwards so that it is loaded or sprung. Because it is sprung inwards, when you start uncocking the wrist in the forward stroke, the movement can go only one way-supination. It is like a wound spring that can only unwind once you let it loose-there is no other way.

    A very rough analogy is to engage first gear in a manual gear-box, rev the engine hard, and then let go the clutch to bolt your car forward. This is using the "wrist". Without the use of the wrist, you start revving the car engine in neutral and at the go signal you then switch on to first gear-this is too slow off the block. The former is "geared" or "sprung", the latter unsprung.

    Of all the western countries only the Danes have mastered the wrist to the same level as Asians.
     
  11. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    an analogy would be like throwing a stone as far as possible. Or doing the baseball throw at extreme speed. ;)
     
  12. Xangosteen

    Xangosteen New Member

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    Hmm ... Interesting. I have always thought that wrist plays a major role and was personally told by one of a reserved national player where he said, "Appprox. 90% of the power comes from the wrist".

    Anyway, after watching this, everything became clear >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPhnkumzBc
     
  13. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Well, I am less than convinced by arguments that most of the power in the smash comes from the slight deviation from neutral that is observed in a forehand overhead stroke. Dont get me wrong, I do agree the movement does occur, but I personally disagree that it is the important part of power generation in a smash. However, I would still love to see (indicate at what times in the videos of lin dans smashes) you think the wrist has played a vital part in.

    We will have to agree to disagree :) I will just continue to base my ideals on the teachings of the danish player Peter Rasmussen, who states that the power in his strokes does not come from the wrist, but from the "snapping" action of forearm pronation. And you said the danes had also mastered this technique? Seems to me the man himself knows what he is talking about...

    I personally don't think comparing two different backhand techniques is appropriate because Nathan Robertson simply follows through after his hit, which is simply for the purpose of performing a drill. Actually, Zhaos demonstration uses forearm rotation for power, but it is emphasized by the fact that he hits with a rebound "tapping" action. He is still only using his forearm. At the end of the stroke, his wrist is cocked back, but this is to control the direction of the shuttle when it is to the side/behind you.

    Anyway! No point arguing over a difference of opinion. My opinion is, that the wrist moves backwards (cocks) because it is relaxed, and uncocks because it is reaching upwards. The power comes, in my opinion from the rotation of the forearm (and hence the wrist). I could be wrong, but I think I am right.
     
  14. stumblingfeet

    stumblingfeet Regular Member

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    I think the issue is a simply a matter of semantics.

    Let's say you have a group of athletically talented students and you decide to teach them the "wrist shot" which is primarily a pronation driven movement, they'll have no problem learning the technique and they might even comment "oh yeah, it is all in wrist!"

    With a group of less coordinated students, who don't really know how to use their bodies in an intuitive way, they'll take a look at their wrist, and try to do some awkward incorporation of wrist flexion/extension into their stroke, without much success. With these students you have to distinguish between wrist flexion/extension and pronation/supination. In addition you probably have to demonstrate the effects of radial/ulnar deviation on these articulations.

    Personally, I have no problems with the term "wrist shot" or "wrist power" because I think they're intuitive to understand for many people. If you want to get technical, the proximal end of the forearm is the elbow and the distal end is the wrist. It would made sense to take the proximal end as the point of reference. Now, if the hands are empty rotation of the forearms is barely noticeable, but with a long object in the hands it makes a huge difference. If rotation of the wrist relative to the elbow results massive displacement at the end of your racquet, I don't see why we can't call that a wrist action, especially in a general setting.
     
  15. kevinboyz

    kevinboyz Regular Member

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    I agree with you, wrist was taught long ago, but most professionals use forearm pornation now. I believe when people say that the wrist generates the power, I don't think your refering to leaving your wrist at 0 degrees and then snapping it towards and ending up at 180degrees.

    What I personally do, wrong or right. Is I pronate my arm forward and snap the wrist maybe 20 degrees forward and follow through with a pronation.

    like these
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    also a video of Fu Hai Feng Pronation
    [video=youtube;7HTeG0CmKbU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HTeG0CmKbU&feature=related[/video]
     
  16. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Thats an excellent video. To my mind, there is no wrist movement there, only forearm pronation. Perhaps the others will disagree? What you say about the wrist being taught before is true, and hence why those older training videos with Zhao Jian Hua are misleading in their terminology. Once again, just my opinion!
     
  17. Big L4

    Big L4 Regular Member

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    (...)

    I am exasperated with all the confusion here. It is clear (or maybe unclear for some of your eyes) that there is wrist rotation involved since there is pronation: you can't have pronation without wrist rotation (it is the same).

    Oh. And just to mention that there is also upperarm rotation involved (for more info, check badmintonbible in http://www.badmintonbible.com/articles/forehand-power/lessons/arm-rotation-1.php)
     
  18. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    we're not disputing this fact. wrist rotation is pronation/supination.

    what we can't agree on is whether there is any or some wrist flexion involved in contributing power to the smash.

    i think there is, depending...

    depending on where you're smashing from.
    if from rear court, then no wrist flexion, otherwise the shuttle will end up in the net.
    if from mid to fore court, then wrist flexion is needed to prevent the shuttle from flying past the baselline.

    so, at least we know that wrist flexion is important in controlling the smash angle.
     
  19. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    There are many pivoting points when hitting a shot. These include the body, shoulder, elbow, and the wrist. All these must be perfectly synchronized for the most efficient shot execution. The pivot at the wrist registers the fastest speed, the body the slowest. This is as it should be and in a way is similar to the different parts of a racket in which the top end travels the fastest and the handle the slowest.

    Power comes from both speed and also weight. It is easier to smash with a more head-heavy racket because of weight plus gravity. But with clears, both forehand and backhand, weight and head-heaviness do not help as much, and this is where speed at the wrist pivot is vital.
    Of course if you know how to use the wrist properly, and this means cocking back and then uncocking the wrist in a timely manner, even the smash will be significantly faster than mere racket weight and gravity can do.

    The wrist, being the last and fastest pivot, is like a tensioned or sprung bar or spring when properly cocked and then uncocked. Using the wrist without cocking and uncocking it is the worse any player can do because the shuttle will go no where, and this is often blamed for all the wrist's weakness.

    It is this cocking and then uncocking of the wrist, cocking to wind up the "spring" and then uncocking to release the sprung spring that sets in motion the stored energy in a pronation (forehand) and supination (backhand) movement. Once you have cocked your wrist back for a forehand stroke, uncocking the wrist forces you to pronate-there is no other direction the wrist/forearm can go. The same with the backhand where the cocking of the wrist means winding your wrist in inwards (pronate) and then uncocking of the wrist means releasing the stored energy in its natural pathway-outwards or supinate.

    Proper use of the wrist allows deceptive play and powerful shots can be hit with little arm movement. It also allows wickedly steep smashes.

    Btw, pronation or supination without any cocking or uncocking of the wrist (in other words with the wrist neutral) will rob you of the immense speed a shuttle can be hit, although it is better than using the wrist without cocking and uncocking of the wrist.
     
  20. ananthu

    ananthu Regular Member

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    This brings me to something other than pronation and wrist- kinetic linking. Its a very important factor in developing power. I know this cause i am a martial artist and i am very sure that my martial arts training has helped my badminton. So just adding to the post
     

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