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    Default Consistency in tumble shots

    Here's a question that hasn't been asked here, suprisingly: How do you perform a "tumble" net return? By that I mean hitting the bird such that the bird "flips" over the net rather than bouncing over, allowing it the hug the net on its way down without lifting it much more than a bird's length over the net.

    Usually, if I want to return a net shot with another a net shot, I just slice it to the other side of the court, which is very predictable as that's what most people I play do. If I want to return it over the net on the same side of the court, I can't do it effectively. If I slice it over on the same side of the court, it risks going over the sidelines. If I do a "soft lift" and bounce the shuttle over, it usually bounces a feet over the net, making it vulnerable to a quick put-away.

    The obvious return is the tumble shot, but I don't know how to do this consistently. I hold the racquet such that the string bed faces upwads and slightly towards the other court. Upon contact with the shuttle, I push the racquet forward and slightly upward. This sometimes causes the shuttle to tumble as desired, but more often than not it just bounces over. What is the actually technique for tumble shots? I learnt my way of doing it just by watching others play so I'm not sure if I'm doing it right (or even if the people i'm watching are doing it right)

    Btw, isn't it weird how a smash, which is easier to execute, gets asked about often than a tumble shot, which is not only harder to do but also more useful IMHO.

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    I'm the exact opposite of you, I cannot do cross court netshots and can only do stright forward shots.

    Personally, I let momentum take the toll. Step up with the racket face at about 45 degrees or wutever a good angle would be for the bird to flip over(with the racket face almost fixed) and a soft bounce makes the bird go over the net just slightly above it
    Last edited by JChen99; 02-28-2003 at 02:25 PM.

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    Hello Bigredlemon,

    Since I often elicit groans from our adversaries in doubles play by doing exactly that, i.e. getting the shuttlecock to tumble and hug the net, here are my 2 cents worth on this topic:

    First, as you mentioned the racket must be held very flat in front of you with a slight inclination towards the net.

    Second, as the bird hits the racket, move the rackethead slighly AWAY from the net and slighly upwards. This move should feel somewhat similar to when you bounce a ping-pong ball off a paddle.

    Since this move needs to be more pronounced when you hit a lower bird (say about knee high), I'd suggest practicing with low shots first to get used to the feeling and moving up progressively. Although it becomes very subtle at net level, it remains a move away from the net and upwards, the only change being the amplitude and angle used.

    Have fun,

    Mike

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    BTW, if you get the knack of the tumble shot described above, you may find it easy to delay the choice between the straight ahead tumble or the cross court net shot.

    It's a simple matter of changing the angle of your racket at the last moment from one that faces the net (with a slight slice AWAY from the net) to one that faces the cross court side (with a slice TOWARDS that direction).

    Cheers,

    Mike

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    Thanks for your reply Mike. It sounds like I've been moving the racquet in the wrong direction. I'll try pulling it instead of pushing it forward. How long did it take you to master this? People who can do this consistently and effectively have told me it took them more than two years to achieve that. I'mt not sure if I can wait that long but I know it will be worth it. As of now, I'm on the giving end of the irate groans. Hope things will change the other way around soon.

    JChen, with the technique you described, I find that the shuttle returns over the net in a traditional (symmetrical) arch rather than a tumble shot. Do you do anything special to get the bird to tumble?
    Last edited by bigredlemon; 02-28-2003 at 06:00 PM.

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    net shot technique is very delicate and there are many techniques. here are things that i have learned during the years.

    however, the points that are common among them:

    - during preparation, your wrist needs to be higher than the contact point. meaning, the racket head is pointing downwards and the racket face creates a forward leaning slope away from your body. this way, during contact, the birdie will be flying away from you instead of towards you. this seems to be common sense, but i have seen many who don't realize this or don't know that they are doing it incorrectly.

    - relax. despite being such small force, the netshots are best done using tiny and delicate finger movements. arm movements are too rough for such a delicate shot.

    outside cut

    the ones that are most common is outside cut. basically you push your racket away from your body. and by varying the angle of your racket head using your fingers, you will find the motion that works well for you.

    one advantage of this shot is that since it is a forward motion, the motion coincide with your body travel direction, so it is easier to do when you are a little bit short of time. your racket movement can be either perpendicular or parallel to the net.

    what i find is that this technique creates the most tumbling motion, i can make the birdie tumble on all its axis using his technique.

    however, i also find that the "air time" for this shot is also high. the disadvantage being so is that it allows your opponent time to get to the net and kill it. perhaps it is better for single.

    inside cut

    this is a shot that i only learned in the past couple of years. instead of a outside cut, this is an sideway cut inwards. meaning, for (righthander) forehand shot, it cut from right to left, and for (righthander) backward shot, it cuts from left to right.

    the stroke is less natural and take a bit more time to master. you need to bring your racket shaft perpendicular to the net, and than using your fingers, draws the racket face sideways parallel to the ground. the motion is very delicate and small so it is harder for your opponent to see.

    the advantage of this shot is that there is less tumbling of the birdie, and the birdie's air time is very short. it falls very quickly after it reaches the highest point of the projectile. it seems like it loses its kinetic energy very quickly and immediate starts to fall vertically. when done correctly, this shot is very hard to kill.

    in general though, netshots are such delicate shot you really need to have someone show you in person and then you need to go practice it many many thousand times.

    good luck.

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    Originally posted by bigredlemon
    JChen, with the technique you described, I find that the shuttle returns over the net in a traditional (symmetrical) arch rather than a tumble shot. Do you do anything special to get the bird to tumble?
    hmm... if you want a tumble, you can kinda jerk the bird a little(little slicing motion at the end to one side so it spins either counter clockwise or clockwise) I find not that much a need in putting a tumble into my shot on a good day since it's alredy really tight

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    What Kwun said....


    My point to add is spinning tumble shots at the net might be easier with feather shuttles than plastic.

    For my own case, I get a person to stand opposite the net and throw shuttles across to practice the shot. Even after doing many thousands of shuttles, I still find it difficult. Some days are better than others and it's a skill you really have to keep practicing.

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    i was taught this shot some time ago by my father who was training to be a coach at the time.

    exactly as kwun said - apparently the way to get the 'tumbling' is to jab at he top of the net - this causes the spinning, tumbling to begin - but it is a very difficult shot to execute if you don't get there ontime - the shuttle with simply bounce into the top of the net. it is a surefire way to make a tight net return and make it difficult for the opponent to return as tight - usually resulting in high lift or a sitter at the net for you to kill off.

    best advice.. practice it - get a feeder and do about 100. you'll get the hang of it


    Neil


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    Default hm.... intersting

    it would be better if you had like alink to pictures.. or videos .. that would help us alot


    and can i use this inside and outside cut if the bird is not near net level but theground level?

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    Default Re: hm.... intersting

    Originally posted by x-er
    and can i use this inside and outside cut if the bird is not near net level but theground level?
    The short answer is no. If the shuttle is taken very low, it's almost impossible to do a nicve cut shot. Similarly, if the shuttle is on a flatter path so that you hit the shuttle about 3 feet away from the net, a good spinning shot is also difficult.

    Forgot to mention before, for a good spinning shot, time the landing of your front foot to the ground simultaneously with the striking of the shuttle. You'd be surprised how many people actually put their foot down first, then do the stroke to strike the shuttle in a sequential manner.

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    Originally posted by bigredlemon
    Thanks for your reply Mike. It sounds like I've been moving the racquet in the wrong direction. I'll try pulling it instead of pushing it forward. How long did it take you to master this? People who can do this consistently and effectively have told me it took them more than two years to achieve that. I'mt not sure if I can wait that long but I know it will be worth it. As of now, I'm on the giving end of the irate groans. Hope things will change the other way around soon.
    You're welcome bigredlemon,

    The politically correct answer to your question would be "it took awhile". In fact, I also played tennis table a lot at the time, so I experimented to see what would happen if I applied some of those brushing techniques to badminton (i.e. brush up, slice underneath, or slice sideways as you would when appying topspin, backspin, or sidespin to a ping pong ball).

    That's how I discovered that if I tackled a low bird near the net by applying a bit of lift while at the same time moving the racket away from the net (something akin to lifting a ping pong ball with topspin from below table level), it would create this forward tumble (picture pulling the rug from under someone's feet...they tumble in the opposite direction).

    It was then a simple matter of getting the proper feel at various heights... Counterintuitive and perhaps unorthodox as well but it works

    Mike

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    Some good points have already been posted regarding net shots,
    namely...

    Using your momentum,
    Timing of feet and shuttle
    Flat racquet face,
    Fingers and wrists,
    Inside and outside cuts,

    A further point I'd like to add is the lunge. It's important to really commit to the lunge so that as you play the shot you are (as much as possible) right down to the level of the shuttle. That way, you're looking down your racquet much like how a fencer looks down their weapon. This will mean having to really work the lunging quad. Don't over reach - don't be scared of getting your body real close to the net. It's important to maintain a good posture.

    I've been playing for a while now, and I thought I knew how to play net shots, but this little tip that I was told recently about looking down the racquet does seem to help.

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    BRL, have you seen Peter Gade's website?

    On the top it shows a picture of his arm with a backhand grip going forward. He seems to be holding the racquet with just his fingers and thumb. This is what I was taught as having a 'relaxed' grip for badminton esp. netshots. I used to grip the racquet handle right within my palm and that actually lowers the chances a successful netshot.


    Not sure if this helps you.

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    Some more thoughts.......

    Agree about the lunge being important - I've found that during games even if the shuttle has reached about half way down the net it's still possible to play a shot that hugs the net by keeping your racquet arm fixed and ONLY using the forward movement of your body caused by the lunge. This is a kind of last resort but is effective as if the shuttle is that far down the net playing any sort of decent lift is pretty hard.

    Regarding using either a left to right, or right to left movement (if you're RH, sorry all you lefty's!!) I'd day that if the shuttle is coming cross court you need your racquet head to oppose the incoming direction of the shuttle - imagine a crosscourt drop shot coming into your forehand court. If you tried to play a left to right net shot it will often shoot off out of court as the intial plane of your racquet is pointing down and out of court. Playing this shuttle with a right to left net shot has a higher chance of going in, as you immediately oppose the incoming motion of the shuttle ( a by-product of this is that it's easier to spin the shuttle by doing this). Reverse for shuttles coming to your backhand court ( left to right is easier than right to left).

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    Originally posted by Cheung
    BRL, have you seen Peter Gade's website?
    Do you mean the top banner on the main page? It almost looks like he's holding his racquet as one would hold a brush. I'm not sure I can get much control using his technique. I think it'll also be difficult for me to switch between this grip and my conventional v-grip. Since he's a great player, I'm sure there's some benefit to be gained if one masters this.


    I've haven't had a chance to really test out all the methods posted here yet as whenever a good opportunity comes up, I always "instinctively" do whichever shot I've always done. In the few times I've used it though, I can get it tumble, though the height and direction are still unpredictable to me. I'll try to force myself using the tumble shot more often tonite and get some consistency in there.

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    Originally posted by bigredlemon
    I'm not sure I can get much control using his technique. I think it'll also be difficult for me to switch between this grip and my conventional v-grip.

    I've haven't had a chance to really test out all the methods posted here yet as whenever a good opportunity comes up, I always "instinctively" do whichever shot I've always done. In the few times I've used it though, I can get it tumble, though the height and direction are still unpredictable to me. I'll try to force myself using the tumble shot more often tonite and get some consistency in there.
    !) remember, this grip is not for power. It's for control. One thing not explained very well in badminton texts is the grip. Many people interpret the v-grip as the handle nestling in the palm of the hand. To effectively change the grip quickly, the handle is best held within the fingers. Larger handle sizes (e.g. overwrapping) are more difficult to change quickly. That's why I reduced the diameter of my handle.

    2) to try the techniques mentioned, it's definately better to get somebody throw the shuttles to you over the net rather than try them out in the game. In a game, you may have the opportunity to try the shot 3-4 times. Having somebody 'feed' the shuttles enables you to practice the shot many times in a short space of time.

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