Consistency in tumble shots

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by bigredlemon, Feb 28, 2003.

  1. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    Here's a question that hasn't been asked here, suprisingly: How do you perform a "tumble" net return? By that I mean hitting the bird such that the bird "flips" over the net rather than bouncing over, allowing it the hug the net on its way down without lifting it much more than a bird's length over the net.

    Usually, if I want to return a net shot with another a net shot, I just slice it to the other side of the court, which is very predictable as that's what most people I play do. If I want to return it over the net on the same side of the court, I can't do it effectively. If I slice it over on the same side of the court, it risks going over the sidelines. If I do a "soft lift" and bounce the shuttle over, it usually bounces a feet over the net, making it vulnerable to a quick put-away.

    The obvious return is the tumble shot, but I don't know how to do this consistently. I hold the racquet such that the string bed faces upwads and slightly towards the other court. Upon contact with the shuttle, I push the racquet forward and slightly upward. This sometimes causes the shuttle to tumble as desired, but more often than not it just bounces over. What is the actually technique for tumble shots? I learnt my way of doing it just by watching others play so I'm not sure if I'm doing it right (or even if the people i'm watching are doing it right:p)

    Btw, isn't it weird how a smash, which is easier to execute, gets asked about often than a tumble shot, which is not only harder to do but also more useful IMHO.
     
  2. JChen99

    JChen99 Regular Member

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    I'm the exact opposite of you, I cannot do cross court netshots and can only do stright forward shots.

    Personally, I let momentum take the toll. Step up with the racket face at about 45 degrees or wutever a good angle would be for the bird to flip over(with the racket face almost fixed) and a soft bounce makes the bird go over the net just slightly above it
     
    #2 JChen99, Feb 28, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2003
  3. mlvezina

    mlvezina Regular Member

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    Hello Bigredlemon,

    Since I often elicit groans from our adversaries in doubles play by doing exactly that, i.e. getting the shuttlecock to tumble and hug the net, here are my 2 cents worth on this topic:

    First, as you mentioned the racket must be held very flat in front of you with a slight inclination towards the net.

    Second, as the bird hits the racket, move the rackethead slighly AWAY from the net and slighly upwards. This move should feel somewhat similar to when you bounce a ping-pong ball off a paddle.

    Since this move needs to be more pronounced when you hit a lower bird (say about knee high), I'd suggest practicing with low shots first to get used to the feeling and moving up progressively. Although it becomes very subtle at net level, it remains a move away from the net and upwards, the only change being the amplitude and angle used.

    Have fun,

    Mike
     
  4. mlvezina

    mlvezina Regular Member

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    BTW, if you get the knack of the tumble shot described above, you may find it easy to delay the choice between the straight ahead tumble or the cross court net shot.

    It's a simple matter of changing the angle of your racket at the last moment from one that faces the net (with a slight slice AWAY from the net) to one that faces the cross court side (with a slice TOWARDS that direction).

    Cheers,

    Mike
     
  5. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    Thanks for your reply Mike. It sounds like I've been moving the racquet in the wrong direction. I'll try pulling it instead of pushing it forward. How long did it take you to master this? People who can do this consistently and effectively have told me it took them more than two years to achieve that. I'mt not sure if I can wait that long but I know it will be worth it. As of now, I'm on the giving end of the irate groans:eek:. Hope things will change the other way around soon.

    JChen, with the technique you described, I find that the shuttle returns over the net in a traditional (symmetrical) arch rather than a tumble shot. Do you do anything special to get the bird to tumble?
     
    #5 bigredlemon, Feb 28, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2003
  6. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    net shot technique is very delicate and there are many techniques. here are things that i have learned during the years.

    however, the points that are common among them:

    - during preparation, your wrist needs to be higher than the contact point. meaning, the racket head is pointing downwards and the racket face creates a forward leaning slope away from your body. this way, during contact, the birdie will be flying away from you instead of towards you. this seems to be common sense, but i have seen many who don't realize this or don't know that they are doing it incorrectly.

    - relax. despite being such small force, the netshots are best done using tiny and delicate finger movements. arm movements are too rough for such a delicate shot.

    outside cut

    the ones that are most common is outside cut. basically you push your racket away from your body. and by varying the angle of your racket head using your fingers, you will find the motion that works well for you.

    one advantage of this shot is that since it is a forward motion, the motion coincide with your body travel direction, so it is easier to do when you are a little bit short of time. your racket movement can be either perpendicular or parallel to the net.

    what i find is that this technique creates the most tumbling motion, i can make the birdie tumble on all its axis using his technique.

    however, i also find that the "air time" for this shot is also high. the disadvantage being so is that it allows your opponent time to get to the net and kill it. perhaps it is better for single.

    inside cut

    this is a shot that i only learned in the past couple of years. instead of a outside cut, this is an sideway cut inwards. meaning, for (righthander) forehand shot, it cut from right to left, and for (righthander) backward shot, it cuts from left to right.

    the stroke is less natural and take a bit more time to master. you need to bring your racket shaft perpendicular to the net, and than using your fingers, draws the racket face sideways parallel to the ground. the motion is very delicate and small so it is harder for your opponent to see.

    the advantage of this shot is that there is less tumbling of the birdie, and the birdie's air time is very short. it falls very quickly after it reaches the highest point of the projectile. it seems like it loses its kinetic energy very quickly and immediate starts to fall vertically. when done correctly, this shot is very hard to kill.

    in general though, netshots are such delicate shot you really need to have someone show you in person and then you need to go practice it many many thousand times.

    good luck.
     
  7. JChen99

    JChen99 Regular Member

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    hmm... if you want a tumble, you can kinda jerk the bird a little(little slicing motion at the end to one side so it spins either counter clockwise or clockwise) I find not that much a need in putting a tumble into my shot on a good day since it's alredy really tight
     
  8. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    What Kwun said....
    :)

    My point to add is spinning tumble shots at the net might be easier with feather shuttles than plastic.

    For my own case, I get a person to stand opposite the net and throw shuttles across to practice the shot. Even after doing many thousands of shuttles, I still find it difficult. Some days are better than others and it's a skill you really have to keep practicing.
     
  9. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    i was taught this shot some time ago by my father who was training to be a coach at the time.

    exactly as kwun said - apparently the way to get the 'tumbling' is to jab at he top of the net - this causes the spinning, tumbling to begin - but it is a very difficult shot to execute if you don't get there ontime - the shuttle with simply bounce into the top of the net. it is a surefire way to make a tight net return and make it difficult for the opponent to return as tight - usually resulting in high lift or a sitter at the net for you to kill off.

    best advice.. practice it - get a feeder and do about 100. you'll get the hang of it


    Neil

    :D
     
  10. x-er

    x-er Regular Member

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    hm.... intersting

    it would be better if you had like alink to pictures.. or videos .. that would help us alot


    and can i use this inside and outside cut if the bird is not near net level but theground level?
     
  11. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Re: hm.... intersting

    The short answer is no. If the shuttle is taken very low, it's almost impossible to do a nicve cut shot. Similarly, if the shuttle is on a flatter path so that you hit the shuttle about 3 feet away from the net, a good spinning shot is also difficult.

    Forgot to mention before, for a good spinning shot, time the landing of your front foot to the ground simultaneously with the striking of the shuttle. You'd be surprised how many people actually put their foot down first, then do the stroke to strike the shuttle in a sequential manner.
     
  12. mlvezina

    mlvezina Regular Member

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    You're welcome bigredlemon,

    The politically correct answer to your question would be "it took awhile". In fact, I also played tennis table a lot at the time, so I experimented to see what would happen if I applied some of those brushing techniques to badminton (i.e. brush up, slice underneath, or slice sideways as you would when appying topspin, backspin, or sidespin to a ping pong ball).

    That's how I discovered that if I tackled a low bird near the net by applying a bit of lift while at the same time moving the racket away from the net (something akin to lifting a ping pong ball with topspin from below table level), it would create this forward tumble (picture pulling the rug from under someone's feet...they tumble in the opposite direction).

    It was then a simple matter of getting the proper feel at various heights... Counterintuitive and perhaps unorthodox as well but it works :D

    Mike
     
  13. Kiwiplayer

    Kiwiplayer Regular Member

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    Some good points have already been posted regarding net shots,
    namely...

    Using your momentum,
    Timing of feet and shuttle
    Flat racquet face,
    Fingers and wrists,
    Inside and outside cuts,

    A further point I'd like to add is the lunge. It's important to really commit to the lunge so that as you play the shot you are (as much as possible) right down to the level of the shuttle. That way, you're looking down your racquet much like how a fencer looks down their weapon. This will mean having to really work the lunging quad. Don't over reach - don't be scared of getting your body real close to the net. It's important to maintain a good posture.

    I've been playing for a while now, and I thought I knew how to play net shots, but this little tip that I was told recently about looking down the racquet does seem to help.
     
  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    BRL, have you seen Peter Gade's website?

    On the top it shows a picture of his arm with a backhand grip going forward. He seems to be holding the racquet with just his fingers and thumb. This is what I was taught as having a 'relaxed' grip for badminton esp. netshots. I used to grip the racquet handle right within my palm and that actually lowers the chances a successful netshot.


    Not sure if this helps you.
     
  15. Steplantis

    Steplantis Regular Member

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    Some more thoughts.......

    Agree about the lunge being important - I've found that during games even if the shuttle has reached about half way down the net it's still possible to play a shot that hugs the net by keeping your racquet arm fixed and ONLY using the forward movement of your body caused by the lunge. This is a kind of last resort but is effective as if the shuttle is that far down the net playing any sort of decent lift is pretty hard.

    Regarding using either a left to right, or right to left movement (if you're RH, sorry all you lefty's!!) I'd day that if the shuttle is coming cross court you need your racquet head to oppose the incoming direction of the shuttle - imagine a crosscourt drop shot coming into your forehand court. If you tried to play a left to right net shot it will often shoot off out of court as the intial plane of your racquet is pointing down and out of court. Playing this shuttle with a right to left net shot has a higher chance of going in, as you immediately oppose the incoming motion of the shuttle ( a by-product of this is that it's easier to spin the shuttle by doing this). Reverse for shuttles coming to your backhand court ( left to right is easier than right to left).
     
  16. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    Do you mean the top banner on the main page? It almost looks like he's holding his racquet as one would hold a brush. I'm not sure I can get much control using his technique. I think it'll also be difficult for me to switch between this grip and my conventional v-grip. Since he's a great player, I'm sure there's some benefit to be gained if one masters this.
    [​IMG]

    I've haven't had a chance to really test out all the methods posted here yet as whenever a good opportunity comes up, I always "instinctively" do whichever shot I've always done. In the few times I've used it though, I can get it tumble, though the height and direction are still unpredictable to me. I'll try to force myself using the tumble shot more often tonite and get some consistency in there.
     
  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    !) remember, this grip is not for power. It's for control. One thing not explained very well in badminton texts is the grip. Many people interpret the v-grip as the handle nestling in the palm of the hand. To effectively change the grip quickly, the handle is best held within the fingers. Larger handle sizes (e.g. overwrapping) are more difficult to change quickly. That's why I reduced the diameter of my handle.

    2) to try the techniques mentioned, it's definately better to get somebody throw the shuttles to you over the net rather than try them out in the game. In a game, you may have the opportunity to try the shot 3-4 times. Having somebody 'feed' the shuttles enables you to practice the shot many times in a short space of time.
     
  18. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    i was shown a completely different technique for netshot the other day. it was quite a contrast to the ones i was taught.

    i was shown this by a coach who used to play in a Chinese county team.

    i was only shown the forehand. there are 3 types.

    forward

    first type is for hitting the birdie at a forward projectile. the path of the racket head is also forward. first approach birdie with racket head point outward, slightly rearward, and slightly upward. on contact, rotate wrist with pronation to hit the shuttle.

    the significance differences between this technique and the ones i was taught (described in a previous posting in this thread) is that the racket head is pointing slightly upward, ie, the rackethead is slightly higher than the wrist. also, racket motion is mainly from wrist movement. i asked if i should be only using the wrist, the coach basically said no quite, it is not 100% wrist, but from what i can see, it is like 90% wrist and 10% fingers.

    i tried it out, it takes a few minute to get the hang of, and it does give a nice tumble.

    inwards

    the second type is for hitting inwards, inward meaning racket head motion is from racket arm side to non-racket arm side. (R->L if you are right handed).

    this is similar to what i had described earlier, racket head point say 45degrees between forward and sideways. but the difference is this, racket head again is pointing slightly upwards, and yet again, pronation is used to propel the racket head instead of fingers. the projectile of the birdie is inwards and creates an irregular tumble.

    outwards

    the third type is a outside tumble, where the racket motion is from inside (non-racket side) to outside. mainly used to receive crosscourt drops.

    on preparation, the racket shaft is parallel to the net. and again, pointing slightly upwards. follow the birdie and push outwards. on contact with birdie, use fingers to rotate the racket head forward.
     
  19. Carbonex_21

    Carbonex_21 Regular Member

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    Hi guys,

    i still don’t get how to do the tumble shot. here is what i can imagine (for right hander):



    1) if the shuttle comes directly towards you (ie your opponent drop the shuttle into the middle of your frontcourt or play a net return directly infront of you), your action is;



    (a) rush to the frontcourt, with forehand grip and the racket hand stretched forward infront, further push your racket away from your body toward the net. the racket face will be parallel to the floor and the racket move perpendicular to the net (which means pushing the racket further will make your racket touching the net).



    or;



    (b) rush to the frontcourt, with forehand grip and the racket hand stretched forward infront your, divert your racket away to your right (outside cutting) or to your left (inside cutting). the racket face will be parallel to the floor and the racket move parallel to the net (either to the right or left).



    2) if the shuttle comes across either to the right or left of your frontcourt (ie. while you are replying a crosscourt drop shot or crosscourt net return), your action is;

    rush to the right (with forehand grip) or the left (with backhand grip)frontcourt, with the racket hand stretched forward infront, further push your racket away from your body towards the shuttle. the racket face will be parallel to the floor and the racket move same direction as your body movement (45 degrees to the net). (This technique is equal to 1(a)). If you are already in the front court and replying the crosscourt return from your opponent, the racket will move almost parallel to the net as you push the racket away from your body.



    can anyone comment?i really hope someone could upload some pictures or video here, how to perform the shot. sending your own training pictures/video will do.



    Thanks.
     

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