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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by terencechan View Post
    I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you mindfields and demolidor. The point of the speed test is NOT to get a consistent flight for the shuttle. You could be "CONSISTENTLY" playing with the wrong shuttle speed. The point of the speed test is to ensure the shuttle cock flies as a certain "standard" speed whether you're playing in the summer, winter, up in the mountains or below sea level.

    Now, after so many weeks of delay, I've finally got to doing the speed test. Sorry for the delay Taneepak. I tested 3 shots on an RSL shuttlecock (77 speed). I managed to land all 3 shuttles around 2 -3 feet of the back doubles service line.

    My conclusion after the test was.. I'm still think there should be a more scientific way to test the shuttlecocks. In golf, they test the golf balls using a machine called Iron Byron and probably a few more sophisticated machines who's name I can't recall at the moment. Anyway, the machine hits the ball at a precise launch angle and speed. Ball launch angle, spin rate and carry can be measured precisely. The golf associations use these test to control and limit the maximum distance golf balls can fly. Well, I'm sure some smart badminton enthusiast would have invented such a machine. Only problem is, it's not in official badminton association's rules book to manage shuttlecock speed. I say it's time to kick these bunch of useless old goats out the IBF and have some new blood in. Shuttlecock test, video replays, rude referees, the confusing and difficult to implement low service rule.. just to mention a few things that needs improving to make badminton a more popular sport internationally. whew.. I think I just blew out some steam.
    Are you going to throw all the shuttles away that fly too far or label them a different speed? I believe mindspeed's point was or at least that's the part I derived from it: the player's develop a (more or less) consistent routine/swing for the speedtest so the shuttle should be the variable. I think you are watching it from a single point of player's perspective without any control group (other players). In that case yes you could be playing with the wrong speed your whole life .

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    In terms of reliability of the shuttle speed test, I would like to add in my own reflection.

    G.K. Chesterton has a famous quote: "Don't take down the fence until you know why it was put up in the first place."

    So for the shuttle test, as well as the other items mentioned such as the low service rule and referees, it's important for us to find out what the rules were meant to promote and prevent in the first place.

    From what I can gather here, the shuttle test is meant to have the same flight speed and advance players can preform the test consistently. In addition with standard production rules for a feather bird, the same shuttle speed would also determine it's trajectory albeit minor variance. This means that at any serious level of play, the bird is standardized.

    However, for lower levels of play, the tournament would need to hire an advance player to test the shuttle batch with a few shuttle examples. So there is a limit there that may be easy to overcome for those producing serious tournaments. If the shuttle test was not meant for beginner to intermediate players and their skills are not solid enough to finely control the bird, whether is it a well tested or untested bird of the same speed, than this would be irreverent. However, because playing with the wrong birds could develop bad habits of play, this could be an issue. But whether this is really an issue would best be answered by advance players and up who have experience beginner and intermediate levels to determine if they have developed bad habits that took them time to overcome with untested birds.

    On the issue of designing a machine to test out the speed. If the machine is similar to the ones used in golf or an automatic shuttle launcher, then the price could be prohibitive to any tournament producer that isn't already promoting games for advance level players and up. If the cost is such, then the question is once again irrelevant.

    Thus the only two issues I can personally see with the current test is that for completeness sake only or for improved plays at the beginner and intermediate level without an advance to test out the shuttle. For the first issue, it is not practical to the game but potentially important or interesting in the future. For the second issue, if one has a coach or access to an advance player then the issue can be worked around. This is assuming that beginners and intermediates are adversely effected by playing with company rated but untested locally birds. This assumption needs to be tested or explored by a variety of advance and higher level players to be relevant.
    Last edited by quacky; 11-21-2010 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    Are you going to throw all the shuttles away that fly too far or label them a different speed? I believe mindspeed's point was or at least that's the part I derived from it: the player's develop a (more or less) consistent routine/swing for the speedtest so the shuttle should be the variable. I think you are watching it from a single point of player's perspective without any control group (other players). In that case yes you could be playing with the wrong speed your whole life .
    In the case of birds that fly too far or too short, the best practical decision would be to label then as such and reserve them for another time when they can be used, such as a change in the season, for players that are too weak but need to train speed (shuttles that are too fast), for tipping to play immediately at the correct speed (with lost of durability - suggest with the slower birds when tested at the colder season), or to give it away for service practice (either type), smash returns (faster type) and net kills (slower birds).

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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    Are you going to throw all the shuttles away that fly too far or label them a different speed? I believe mindspeed's point was or at least that's the part I derived from it: the player's develop a (more or less) consistent routine/swing for the speedtest so the shuttle should be the variable. I think you are watching it from a single point of player's perspective without any control group (other players). In that case yes you could be playing with the wrong speed your whole life .
    If the control group have been playing together for a very long time.. they'll all probably agree that they're playing the right speed simply because they've gotten used to a certain shuttle speed.
    If in the control group, you've got 2 newbies. The strong one has no control, so he blast every shuttle out of the back court, and the other newbie is a weak fellow who can't hits everything half court. If they have an argument about shuttle speed, there's no easy solution. But the argument is what if the control group was big enough, and you've got experienced players? Could you get the shuttle speed right? I say there's a better chance... but my point is, if Badminton is going to reach out to a larger audience of global players, your're going to have a lot more newbies than experienced players. Then, these newbies have no way to find out whether they are playing the right shuttle speeds...

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    Quote Originally Posted by quacky View Post
    In terms of reliability of the shuttle speed test, I would like to add in my own reflection.

    G.K. Chesterton has a famous quote: "Don't take down the fence until you know why it was put up in the first place."

    So for the shuttle test, as well as the other items mentioned such as the low service rule and referees, it's important for us to find out what the rules were meant to promote and prevent in the first place.

    From what I can gather here, the shuttle test is meant to have the same flight speed and advance players can preform the test consistently. In addition with standard production rules for a feather bird, the same shuttle speed would also determine it's trajectory albeit minor variance. This means that at any serious level of play, the bird is standardized.

    However, for lower levels of play, the tournament would need to hire an advance player to test the shuttle batch with a few shuttle examples. So there is a limit there that may be easy to overcome for those producing serious tournaments. If the shuttle test was not meant for beginner to intermediate players and their skills are not solid enough to finely control the bird, whether is it a well tested or untested bird of the same speed, than this would be irreverent. However, because playing with the wrong birds could develop bad habits of play, this could be an issue. But whether this is really an issue would best be answered by advance players and up who have experience beginner and intermediate levels to determine if they have developed bad habits that took them time to overcome with untested birds.

    On the issue of designing a machine to test out the speed. If the machine is similar to the ones used in golf or an automatic shuttle launcher, then the price could be prohibitive to any tournament producer that isn't already promoting games for advance level players and up. If the cost is such, then the question is once again irrelevant.

    Thus the only two issues I can personally see with the current test is that for completeness sake only or for improved plays at the beginner and intermediate level without an advance to test out the shuttle. For the first issue, it is not practical to the game but potentially important or interesting in the future. For the second issue, if one has a coach or access to an advance player then the issue can be worked around. This is assuming that beginners and intermediates are adversely effected by playing with company rated but untested locally birds. This assumption needs to be tested or explored by a variety of advance and higher level players to be relevant.
    If the sport was better managed, i guess the issue about cost wouldn't even crop up in the first place. Anyway, shuttle sponsors like Yonex could easy afford such a machine.

  6. #40
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terencechan View Post
    If the sport was better managed, i guess the issue about cost wouldn't even crop up in the first place. Anyway, shuttle sponsors like Yonex could easy afford such a machine.
    For testing on location or at the factory?

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    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Just checked out Iron Byron, seems to be portable so I assume "on location". What about this one I already mentioned before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b_CaC9S5PY

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    If Yonex can transport 20-30 stringing machines to tournaments, 1 badminton testing machine shouldn't be a problem. Only problem is having these machines in smaller tournaments. However, I think this problem can be solved at factory level. A certain standard could be set. For example, say at 500 meters above sea level, 28 degrees temperature, 60% humidity, the recommended shuttle speed would be 77. These standard guidelines can only be set if the rules are set to allow for their implementation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by terencechan View Post
    If Yonex can transport 20-30 stringing machines to tournaments, 1 badminton testing machine shouldn't be a problem. Only problem is having these machines in smaller tournaments. However, I think this problem can be solved at factory level. A certain standard could be set. For example, say at 500 meters above sea level, 28 degrees temperature, 60% humidity, the recommended shuttle speed would be 77. These standard guidelines can only be set if the rules are set to allow for their implementation.
    Machines that are used for shuttle feeding are not good enough to grade shuttlecock speed. Only those used at the plants are well calibrated under controlled environment. Also you do not use different machines to test for different speeds-one will do with a a high level of precision.
    The biggest variable affecting speed is altitude and next is temperature. For Malaysia where non-airconditioned courts are used it is speed 76 for the advanced players, speed 77 for the not so advanced players, and speed 78 for the others who are beginners. For both Cameron Highlands and Genting Highlands it is speed 74, with or without airconditioning.
    At 500 meters it is one speed slower than a sea-level speed.
    The current standard is good enough and speed 77 or any other speed is not a fixed standard. The standard is altitude dependent and to a lesser extent temperature dependent. For example the standard for Malaysia is speed 76 at sea level to 300 meters and speed 74 for the two Highlands.
    Frankly, I am rather surprised at so much "noise" and misinformed information on a standard shuttle speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Machines that are used for shuttle feeding are not good enough to grade shuttlecock speed. Only those used at the plants are well calibrated under controlled environment. Also you do not use different machines to test for different speeds-one will do with a a high level of precision.
    The biggest variable affecting speed is altitude and next is temperature. For Malaysia where non-airconditioned courts are used it is speed 76 for the advanced players, speed 77 for the not so advanced players, and speed 78 for the others who are beginners. For both Cameron Highlands and Genting Highlands it is speed 74, with or without airconditioning.
    At 500 meters it is one speed slower than a sea-level speed.
    The current standard is good enough and speed 77 or any other speed is not a fixed standard. The standard is altitude dependent and to a lesser extent temperature dependent. For example the standard for Malaysia is speed 76 at sea level to 300 meters and speed 74 for the two Highlands.
    Frankly, I am rather surprised at so much "noise" and misinformed information on a standard shuttle speed.
    Thanks for the info Taneepak. It's probably just me that's making the noise and being misinformed. I guess you're probably more familiar with these machines since you're in the shuttle business. In terms of precision though, I would think that it's easier to calibrate a machine rather than humans to hit shuttles at fixed speeds. The mobile and high precision shuttle speed testing machine probably hasn't been invented yet. How much this will revolutionize badminton is debatable; which I guess explains the lack of investment in this area.
    In the mean time, i guess I'm in the not so advanced players category. Need to work on better stamina to get those fast moving shuttles

  11. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by terencechan View Post
    I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you mindfields and demolidor. The point of the speed test is NOT to get a consistent flight for the shuttle. You could be "CONSISTENTLY" playing with the wrong shuttle speed. The point of the speed test is to ensure the shuttle cock flies as a certain "standard" speed whether you're playing in the summer, winter, up in the mountains or below sea level.
    Well that's your opinion. I know what I'm testing for. You may be testing for something different. . .

    The basic premise is that you starting with the correct shuttle speed based on maufacturers & BF recommmendations.
    i.e. In the UK it's 78 in winter & 77 in summer.
    Shuttle manufacturers will have precise "test" machines to set those speed standards and QC will keep (i'm guessing)95% of the rated shuttles in that speed.

    Almost everyone is going to play to those recommendations & learn those flight characteristics. Whenever *I* test a shuttle I'm looking for that kind of performance. If I detect a shuttle that's part of the 5% out of tolerance then we'll discard it or tip it to slow/speed it up.
    I instinctively *know* from memory how well I need to hit the shuttle now to get the back line & I don't actually need to replicate that each time I test. If I don't get a good connection I'll expect the shuttle to land short & if I over hit it or at to shallow an angle I'll expect it to carry a bit further on.

    If I turn up for a match & the opposition club is playing with 79's They'll feel really quick, most of my team will probably quickly agree it's to fast & complain. The other club might be used to quicker shuttles & that's what they have been playing/testing to but they'll quickly find that they have a dispute with almost every club that comes there to play. Eventually BaOE or the County association will make a clarification & either everyone will go to that club expecting to play with the wrong speed of shuttle or they'll cave & switch to the right speed.

    I don't really think there's a need for specialised machines in tournaments. Any pro player will be able to hit the correct rated shuttle within inches of the service line. They'll take the expected speed shuttles & one speed up/down & test all three. I think 90% of the time the pro will hit the deafult speed shuttle bang on the line unless there's a variance in the playing hall.

    Edit:
    The other point is that the maufacturers/BF have done all the hard work in keeping standardised flight characteristics.
    If *I* speed test a 78 shuttle in the UK, I'll hit it on the Service line. When *I* go to Malaysia and do the same test (same technique & power) I'll hit a 76 to the service line straight away. It's nothing fancy on the players part. It's just everyone's playing with the same expectation of flight characteristics & the shuttle manufacturers give the right recommendations to suit the playing environment.
    Last edited by mindfields; 11-22-2010 at 05:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by terencechan View Post
    A certain standard could be set. For example, say at 500 meters above sea level, 28 degrees temperature, 60% humidity, the recommended shuttle speed would be 77. These standard guidelines can only be set if the rules are set to allow for their implementation.
    Er. . . . That's exactly what the manufacturers have done & those standards have been adopted by the Badminton federations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mindfields View Post
    Well that's your opinion. I know what I'm testing for. You may be testing for something different. . .

    The basic premise is that you starting with the correct shuttle speed based on maufacturers & BF recommmendations.
    i.e. In the UK it's 78 in winter & 77 in summer.
    Shuttle manufacturers will have precise "test" machines to set those speed standards and QC will keep (i'm guessing)95% of the rated shuttles in that speed.

    Almost everyone is going to play to those recommendations & learn those flight characteristics. Whenever *I* test a shuttle I'm looking for that kind of performance. If I detect a shuttle that's part of the 5% out of tolerance then we'll discard it or tip it to slow/speed it up.
    I instinctively *know* from memory how well I need to hit the shuttle now to get the back line & I don't actually need to replicate that each time I test. If I don't get a good connection I'll expect the shuttle to land short & if I over hit it or at to shallow an angle I'll expect it to carry a bit further on.

    If I turn up for a match & the opposition club is playing with 79's They'll feel really quick, most of my team will probably quickly agree it's to fast & complain. The other club might be used to quicker shuttles & that's what they have been playing/testing to but they'll quickly find that they have a dispute with almost every club that comes there to play. Eventually BaOE or the County association will make a clarification & either everyone will go to that club expecting to play with the wrong speed of shuttle or they'll cave & switch to the right speed.

    I don't really think there's a need for specialised machines in tournaments. Any pro player will be able to hit the correct rated shuttle within inches of the service line. They'll take the expected speed shuttles & one speed up/down & test all three. I think 90% of the time the pro will hit the deafult speed shuttle bang on the line unless there's a variance in the playing hall.

    Edit:
    The other point is that the maufacturers/BF have done all the hard work in keeping standardised flight characteristics.
    If *I* speed test a 78 shuttle in the UK, I'll hit it on the Service line. When *I* go to Malaysia and do the same test (same technique & power) I'll hit a 76 to the service line straight away. It's nothing fancy on the players part. It's just everyone's playing with the same expectation of flight characteristics & the shuttle manufacturers give the right recommendations to suit the playing environment.
    You are rating the shuttle based on 'memory' and the best shuttle speed based on agreed consensus. How would the BaOE or County association decide which shuttle has the right speed? Probably based on a person of authority's 'memory' as well. That doesn't sound very scientific and probably not the best way to rate shuttles in a game decided by inches. My point is badminton needs an objective test that takes humans out of the equation. A test backed by machine precision that is solid and indisputable. Looks like I might be the only one thinks this way. It's my point of view anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by terencechan View Post
    You are rating the shuttle based on 'memory' and the best shuttle speed based on agreed consensus. How would the BaOE or County association decide which shuttle has the right speed? Probably based on a person of authority's 'memory' as well. That doesn't sound very scientific and probably not the best way to rate shuttles in a game decided by inches. My point is badminton needs an objective test that takes humans out of the equation. A test backed by machine precision that is solid and indisputable. Looks like I might be the only one thinks this way. It's my point of view anyway.
    Perhaps the following will go some way in explaining how shuttlecocks are graded by speed at the plant.
    First, a shuttlecock's speed is influenced by weight, caliber, feather type (whether more leak-proof or less), right and left feather, and weight ratio of base to body. With so many variables manufacturers try to have set standards for most of them with one remaining variable to determine speed, which is usually total weight. This makes it simpler to make different shuttlecock speeds simply by the use of weight, heavier ones for speeds like 78 or 79 and lighter weights for 74 or 75.
    The final product, after a period of two to four weeks of curing, will then be graded by weight, and each grade will then be put through a speed machine that mimics the IBF shuttle speed test, that is it shoots from a low height in an upward trajectory into collection boxes. If the shuttles fail to drop into the boxes they are then of the wrong speed and not selected.
    Now here is where different grades get different treatment. The better grades are tested for other qualities like rotational speed, stability, flight characteristics, durability, etc, and the cheaper grades are sometimes not even tested for speed. Even among the better grades some of the collection boxes are no more than 20cm long for the highest quality and some are 30cm long.
    No memory is involved to decide what speed is used in any given hall. The only reason they test the speed of the shuttles before the games start is to test the accuracy of the rated shuttle speed, not the hall's required speed. This is because not all manufacturers are consistent in their shuttle speed rating.
    Simply put you can find out what speed to use in any hall simply by selecting say one speed as a "standard" and then use this speed and the altitude and temperature of the hall to add or minus this "standard" speed 77.
    As an illustration, let us say speed 77 "standard" is used to determine your hall's speed, the following should be a simple guide.
    1. Speed 77 "standard" is set for sea level up to 300 meters altitude and within a hall temperature range of 22 degrees C to 28 degrees C.
    2. At temperatures from 29 degrees to 35 degrees at sea to 300 meters speed 76 becomes the standard.
    3. At temperatures between 15 degrees to 21 degrees at sea level to 300 meters speed 78 is the standard.
    4. At temperatures below 15 degrees at sea level to 300 meters the standard speed is 79.
    5. Irrespective of temperature, at an altitude of 300m to 500m, the standard speed is 76
    6. Irrespective of temperature, at an altitude between 600m to 1200m, the standard speed is 75.
    7. Between 1300m to 2000m the standard speed is 74, irrespective of temperature.

    Each speed has a distance difference of 30cm. Some manufacturers, not all, have set the various speed parameters at a fixed standard, i.e. caliber and others, and leave just one factor weight to determine speed. In such a case weight of the shuttle is used for speed grading, ie 5.1g for 100m-300m altitude, 5.0g for 300m-600m, 4.9g for 700m-1000m, 4.8g for 1100m-1500m, and 4.7g for 1600m-2000m.

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    My earlier post is based on an IBF standard, i.e. based on an above average player. However, for those who cannot come near the IBF shuttle speed test like those whose speed test sees the shuttle falling more than 11 inches from the back doubles service line, a higher speed is recommended for a more enjoyable game which will enable one to hit from back line to back line instead of playing mostly half court shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by terencechan View Post
    You are rating the shuttle based on 'memory' and the best shuttle speed based on agreed consensus. How would the BaOE or County association decide which shuttle has the right speed? Probably based on a person of authority's 'memory' as well. That doesn't sound very scientific and probably not the best way to rate shuttles in a game decided by inches. My point is badminton needs an objective test that takes humans out of the equation. A test backed by machine precision that is solid and indisputable. Looks like I might be the only one thinks this way. It's my point of view anyway.
    You still don't get the point do you.
    The big Manufacturer's already have machines that do that.
    They have set a flight profile based on initial speed, launch angle and height & designed their shuttles for that.
    They then create variants to match that profile with different altitudes & temperatures. They then publish the creteria for their products. Everyone uses those guidelines & learns how to play with that flight profile.

    If you take that machine & test a 78 in the UK it'll hit the service line. Then if you move that machine to Malaysia without making any adjustments & test a 76 it'll hit the service line with the same launch parameters. That's because the manufacturers have designed the shuttles & rated them to do just that.

    Each badminton association will just look at the charts from the manufacturers & say you should be using this type of shuttle.

    The purpose of the Human speed test is not to re-define the rating of shuttles. It's to detect defects in manufacturing processes/batces or variations of temp in the hall that would call for a change in the selection of shuttle.
    It's not scientific but for experienced players it's free & easy to do.

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    Taneepak's guide is a very useful guide. I'll probably use it myself. The problem is the guide isn't in the badminton rules book.
    Mindfields, the big manufacturers don't set the rules. They make equipment that abates to the rules. They may make high precision shuttles for different conditions, but they can't decide which shuttle works in which environment. The rules do. Do you know what the rules say?

    If the world badminton federation had a guideline like Taneepak's... I rest my case. But last I checked, the rules didn't use any machine or had any guidelines on temperature and altitudes. The rules rely on the old arcane test of hitting the shuttle from one end to the other end of the court. I say a rules update to include a guide line similar to Taneepak's is in order.

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