User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 17 of 27
  1. #1
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    u.s.a.
    Posts
    19,157
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Netcord shots : are they lucky shots or skills??..

    ..i don't know if this topic has been discussed in this sub-forum or not, but just want to share this mini discussion from another thread..

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...urnament/page2

    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    ...
    And those LCW netcords are not luck. 3 out of 4 netcords cannot be luck.
    But both LCW and LD were amazing in G3. Incredible speed even after 60 minutes of play.
    Quote Originally Posted by drifit View Post
    can you define or eloborate what you mean by netcords are not luck?
    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    if 3 out of 4 netcords are not skill then it must be good luck @ 75% success rate!

    if during training, it is very common for netcords,

    do we still consider that as skill or good luck?
    Quote Originally Posted by majyun View Post
    Netcords are like tumbling netshots...players practice to hit that kind of shots but are less frequently used because of its lower chances of success compared to other shots(normally the players give more margin to play safe). That doesn't mean that they can't hit a netcord if they want to. I have seen advanced state players hitting netcords consistently in practice. Of course, they don't go over 100% of the time(hence the lower percentage compared to other ''safe play'' strokes).

    Is that luck? Can we consider someone with skill being lucky?

    If an amateur hit a tumbling netshot or netcord, I will call it luck. But to call LCW being lucky? I hope you guys have a clue on what you are talking here.
    Quote Originally Posted by volcom View Post
    Hope you have a clue as to what you are talking about rofl.
    Playing extreme low percentage shots at crucial stages? Especially for a mentally weak player ? Ridiculous to suggest it is anything but luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by majyun View Post
    I guess Peter Gade and TH must be dumb to play tumbling netshot at crucial state as well. When I said low percentage, it is relative. It doesn't mean is less than 20%. When those shot works, people called it luck, when they don't people called you dumb.
    It depends on whether you wanna take the risk, just like aiming for the sideline while smashing. It is a relative lower percentage shots. Why people still do it? And do you think that LD can't do netcords if he wants to? It all comes down to whether he choose to play it.
    ..
    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    Look at it this way.
    How often did LCW hit the shuttle into the net and missed way below the net cord (A)? Maybe once or twice but I could be wrong.
    How often did LCW hit the shuttle at the net cord level and clear it (B)? Three times.
    In probably all badminton matches, (A) will be more than (B), not the other way round.
    ..
    What do you guys think? Also, don't we see pro players raising their arm/hand to apologize if their netcord shot went their way?..

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    us
    Posts
    8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i think there's a need to make a distinction between the netcords that hit during say, a drop shot, and those during a tight spinning netshot.

    For drop shots, the pros have really good control, so the margin between the bird and the net as it crosses is not very much. However, they're not machines, so there is still some variation, and occasionally a few shots will graze the netcord and drop over. This I believe, depends more on luck, however, having skill greatly increases the chances of this happening as the shots consistently pass close to the net, and have little variance.

    For tumbling dropshots, it probably is easier to get the shuttle to tumble over the netcord most of the time, in my opinion

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    4,010
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Net-cord shots are primarily luck, but it does depend on the shot.

    For example, getting a net-cord smash is very lucky, regardless of the circumstances in the rally. Conversely, if you are taking the shuttle close to the net to play a drive or push, and are well positioned for the shot, then you actually have a moderately good chance of getting a net cord. The same can be true for some net shots, depending on the situation.

    Similarly, you can aim for a net cord when playing a low serve. You're not going to get one consistently, but I've heard that the Chinese doubles team use (or used) this as a practice. The idea is that most of their serves will be very tight and falling just beyond the service line, and occasionally one will just catch the net and land perfectly on the line.

    Obviously you need to keep a sensible margin of error. There's no point getting 1/10 net cords on your serves, while the other 9/10 go in the net.
    Last edited by Gollum; 10-18-2010 at 05:19 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    10,079
    Mentioned
    135 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Personally I hit the net cord in my favour 2-3x per game either on net shots, drops or smashes, so I don't consider it luck.

    Why? Because I'm aiming to get the bird right over the net; so the top of the net cord is what I'm aiming at. So if it happens to touch the net and fall over on the other side, then I consider that I've aimed properly and perfectly. Of course, if it falls over on my side then I'd tell myself that I was unlucky.

    There was also another debate about that 2010 JO MSF game with LD and LCW, surrounding the perception that LCW did not apologize for his several net cord shots whereas LD did.

    I think IMO that LCW was just too engrossed and concentrating on his game and walked away forgetting to "apologize". Knowing his humble and laid-back personality, he would not have done it intentionally.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    263
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, i think its luck... unless its a drop shot from the net and it hits the net and tumbles over or something like that. Usually, if i do a net cord from a smash or drop or drive w/e i say sorry because i wasn't really aiming for that as it wasn't my goal :l but idk thats my opinion. i get really pissed when ppl do like 2-3 net cords in a row from anything but a drop v_v

  6. #6
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    u.s.a.
    Posts
    19,157
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ..guys, the discussion is certainly getting interesting in that thread and methinks they're supposed to be discussed in this thread..

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    San Francisco CA
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Every stroke and movement in badminton has position, velocity, and momentum vectors. Because of this, I would conclude that any "netcord" is purely physics. Due to the momentum and instantaneous velocity as well as placement of the bird as it crosses over the net, there is no "luck" involve. It comes out the way the laws of physics dictates it. What appears to be luck is that statistical, but not random, variables such as muscle tension, our grip with the ground, the tension in the string, and countless other variables. Since players are not machines, as mentioned above, there is variance. And that creates a risk. But the risk narrows with skill. So an amateur may make 1 netcord smash per match, an advance make 1 per game, and a professional several over the course of the match. (These numbers are made up but illustrative). Therefore the conclusion, when taking a deterministic view of reality, is that the netcords done by profession are skills + risk, which the skills being a larger factor than the risks in controlled situations (getting to the bird on time, having good stamina to control the bird, etc).

    Personally, I cannot choose to make a netcord. And even if I am as skillful as a professional, I would probably aim conservatively to have the position of the bird to average just above or just pass the net (depending on smash or drops) so that even with the variance, the netcord would be at the extreme ends of the bell curve. I would conjuncture that experience professionals would feel the same way.

  8. #8
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    10,079
    Mentioned
    135 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    quacky,

    Very good analysis!

    The bell curve analogy is excellent!

    So for beginners, their shot variance is greater, so the bell curve is wider and they have to aim higher above the net to avoid netting too many shots.

    But for pros, they have a tighter variance, so the bell curve is narrower and they can afford to aim just above the tape.

    I think in total analysis, it is highly proficient skills that create the "lucky" net cord shots.

    When pros practice and drill, I'm pretty sure they hit the net cords often, as that is how they judge how close they're getting to the tape. If the shuttle doesn't graze or hit the tape, then there is still doubt about how close you're getting. When it touches or hits the tape, then you'll know to back off the "tightness" of the shot and raise it a tad to avoid netting errors.

    Well, at least that's what goes thru my mind when I'm drilling or playing, eg. drops, net shots, drives, etc... ie. any shot that needs to be low.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    879
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Visor, I am afraid I have to disagree to a certain extent. I know of many situations where players aim FOR the netcord on their net shots.

    I would tend to agree that a netcord from any shot that isn't taken from very close to the net (anything other than a net shot or low serve) is lucky to have hit the net and gone over, because It is highly unlikely that the pleyer playing the stroke was AIMING for the netcord. However, many top singles players such as peter gade practice their tight and further back net shots with the intention of it clipping the tape and going over. From so close to the net, you can gain excellent feeling as to the placement and trajectory of the shuttle and thus these net shots, when they hit the net and go over, are NOT, in my opinion luck, but the result of a lot of practise, doing exactly that, hitting the netcord and having the shot tumble over the net.

    As an example, watch some recent high quality mens singles matches involving Taufik hidayat. When he gets the chance to play a tight spinning net shot, MANY of them will hit the net and go over. This does not mean he ALWAYS goes for the netcord, as this is risky should the shuttle go too short. However, over playing the shot slightly has a good chance the shuttle will go over the net, OR hit the net cord. When he takes the shot VERY early and very near the tape, it is obvious he is going for the netcord. This does not mean that there is not SOME luck involved when it does hit the tae and go over, but there is a huge amount of skill involved as well.

    This is my opinion: for shots other than netshots, it is luck, for netshots, it is mostly skill (when it happens often!!!). At a lower level of play, I would consider them all to be luck, but not with professional players.

    Good thread guys.

  10. #10
    Regular Member ERTHK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    94
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Training & Preparaton is everything

    Professional players are able to execute shots that are very close to the net cord, I would prefer not to call them lucky shots.

    It takes countless of hours of training & good preparation before matches in order to execute those shots well.

    While in training, players do aim for the net cord to practice their shots (serve & net shots), it will give them a perfect guideline to adjust their wrist control, as well as shuttlecock placement.

    The aim is to make the shuttlecock travel pass as close to the net as possible, combined with continuous training, it will make their shots very difficult to be intercepted or returned.

    During match play situation, the speed is much faster and reaction time is much lesser than in training, I doubt that they will go for net cord.

    However, because they consistently used net cord as a guideline in training. Their shot control & shuttlecock placement will be very close to the net even in match play situation, occasionally it struck the net cord & fell over.

    In my opinion, it's not lucky shot, it's a result of hardwork & determination in training.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    San Francisco CA
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    To be honest, it seems that our last four posts (#7-10) have the same core understanding, though slightly different details and different terminology. In particular, what MSeeley terms as luck, if I understand him correctly, is the variance unaccounted for in the intention of the stroke. Whereas Erthk, Visor, and myself, would not call that luck. I would call it environmental and kinesthetic statistical fluctuations in the context of the game. While the variance are not consistently and directly considered by the players' consciousness, they are tightly controlled by the players automated actions and subconscious neural calculations due to the professional players experience and years of meticulous practice.

  12. #12
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    10,079
    Mentioned
    135 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by quacky View Post
    To be honest, it seems that our last four posts (#7-10) have the same core understanding, though slightly different details and different terminology. In particular, what MSeeley terms as luck, if I understand him correctly, is the variance unaccounted for in the intention of the stroke. Whereas Erthk, Visor, and myself, would not call that luck. I would call it environmental and kinesthetic statistical fluctuations in the context of the game. While the variance are not consistently and directly considered by the players' consciousness, they are tightly controlled by the players automated actions and subconscious neural calculations due to the professional players experience and years of meticulous practice.
    Or you can call it "muscle memory".

    Agreed. Their highly proficient skills created their "luck".

    So... if LCW, TH or LD or any of the pros hit the tape in a net shot or drive or drop etc. and it tips over, do they need to put up their hand to apologize?
    Last edited by visor; 10-22-2010 at 12:49 AM.

  13. #13
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    8,900
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    (snip)

    So... if LCW, TH or LD or any of the pros hit the tape in a net shot or drive or drop etc. and it tips over, do they need to put up their hand to apologize?
    Call it sportsmanship; grace; manners, decency; respect. The human gesture says "I probably did attempt that net shot, but I am grateful it went over and I accept that there was maybe a slight element of good fortune; but I also acknowledge that you were on the receiving end, and I apologize for your bad luck in this instance."

    Phew!

    We should all be grateful that most of them still do this gentlemanly thing. It enriches the experience for them, as well as for all of us.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    San Francisco CA
    Posts
    66
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    That's a great term, "muscle memory". This is one of many reasons why I'm a beginner, I don't even know of such efficacious terms.

    I feel it is nice of professions to raise their hands. I noticed as I improved, if I mimic that gesture, my opponents do not get as frustrated and I can continue to enjoy the game. In televised badminton, I feel that adds an important fellowship element between players of different languages and origins.
    Last edited by quacky; 10-22-2010 at 01:02 AM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member ERTHK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    94
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Players do apologize when the shuttlecock hit their opponent's body & most of the time their opponent will acknowledge them.

    But for shots that strike the net cord & tumbling over, I'm not very sure that their apology (if there's any) will be well acknowledged by their opponents.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    4,010
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by quacky View Post
    ... would not call that luck. I would call it environmental and kinesthetic statistical fluctuations in the context of the game. While the variance are not consistently and directly considered by the players' consciousness, they are tightly controlled by the players automated actions and subconscious neural calculations due to the professional players experience and years of meticulous practice.
    I would not call that "grandiloquence"; I would call it enhanced prolixity, symptomatic of an innately ordered mental model that strives vigilantly to clarify such nebulous, antediluvian constructs as fortuity.

    Big words are fun.
    Last edited by Gollum; 10-22-2010 at 05:12 AM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member ERTHK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    94
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Big words are not only fun, they are also pretty useless when u want to simplify an explanation

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Trick Shots/Deceptive Shots Difference and ethics
    By rmnature in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 6
    : 10-28-2011, 01:17 PM
  2. Net Shots
    By random.badmin1 in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 7
    : 10-25-2011, 07:25 PM
  3. Slow drop shots harder to catch then fast drop shots
    By invisbear in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 4
    : 04-18-2009, 02:26 AM
  4. Mug Shots!!!!!
    By Matt Ross in forum Chit-Chat
    Replies: 139
    : 08-22-2006, 09:21 PM
  5. shots?
    By kgen4 in forum General Forum
    Replies: 4
    : 10-14-2002, 03:27 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •