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  1. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post

    Don't tell me BAM does not want to expose potential winners?
    Look at the number of tournaments they enter & their results you will know. If Zul enter BAM, he still must follow seniority, seniors 1st, juniors must wait. Pecking order - Daren, CWF, then Arif, then Iskandar, then Loh WS.

    Bottom line, BAM isnt doing any better anyway with all those talents who have joined them all these years. LCW's successor is still nowhere in sight

  2. #461
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Zulfadli Zulkifli gets my full support

    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    How many Rod Lavers are there in this world? Please be realistic.
    .
    As I posted earlier, we are quite different in our thinking. Let's not go on arguing who is right or wrong. We can both be right and wrong.

    What I am saying is: Since Zulfadli Zulkifli wishes to do it his way, he gets my full support. Even his father thinks like me, allowing Zulfadli Zulkifli to decide to go playing independently.

    I have already posted how unhappy I was, when Chen Hong, Zhou Mi, Zhang Beiwen, etc, etc, ...... all wished to continue playing Badminton tournaments; But because they were under their National Associations, when their associations said "You shall play no more", these players cannot play.

    Just imagine if they were independent players, and BWF allow them to play even though their National Associations don't. How glad can we be, as Badminton fans, when we can still watch our favourite players continuing to play when they wanted to.

    Check if I have posted with errors (in English) like you have mentioned in the other thread; because I have written this in a hurry.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 01-19-2012 at 03:46 AM.

  3. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    Don't tell me Arif or those in the current national team are not training together?

    I thought Loh WS is not interested anymore.

    Exposure will come when the player has proven he is good enough. How many of the current national squad players have impressed at international tournaments? Maybe they have not put in sufficient commitment to become better players?

    Don't tell me BAM does not want to expose potential winners?
    dont tell me if u actually think those managing bam have brain?uncle loh

  4. #463
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    Haiz, I don't like to touch non prime players.

    Anyway, just get the junior coach to spy on other countries juniors like Victor and compare their standards over a period of time.

    Or get his dad to monitor it if BAM is hopeless.

    Oh, I thought Misbun is the first professional player in Malaysia??

  5. #464
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    An excellent article was posted by extremenanopower in the LCW thread. Let me quote some of the issues pertaining to Zul. The writer was really spot on!

    It's an irony that despite these facts, there are those who still think that Zul will fluorish in BAM instead of with KLRC. Players like Arif and Daren cannot even make it under BAM (despite their potential). Why should Zul joins BAM then?

    That BAM have been derelict in their responsibility, despite the resources at their command, is evidenced by the stark lack of new talent capable of being world beaters.

    The only youngster with star potential is junior world champion Zulfadli Zulkifli, but he is a product of KLRC, a club perceived as a rival by BAM. Therein lies the problem. Instead of encouraging and working with clubs, BAM, fearing the erosion of their total domination, have chosen to alienate them.

    That is how bad things are, but BAM, like most other Malaysian sports bodies, are in a state of denial. Instead of looking ahead, they have opted for a player who is well past his prime (Mohd Hafiz Hashim).

    They have chosen to ignore the talented Zulfadli simply because he is outside their control, belonging to an outfit they see as being too independent and wilful to their liking.



  6. #465
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    The so-called National Association system in badminton is partly to be blamed for the lack of growth of the sport and numerous issues related to match-fixing, favoritism, etc.

    It also contrains the growth and development of young players as some of them may end up rotting behind the pecking order, instead of fluorishing in the sport.

    The article has also commended the important role that clubs have played in the development of badminton in Europe (and other European countries) and China. This should be the direction that KLRC and Nusa Mansuri should adopt from now on. If clubs are successful in grooming world-class players, future junior players will be more encouraged to join the sport and be groomed by clubs (not necessarily by national association).

    Ditto for INA clubs like Djarum, Jaya Raya, Mutiara, etc. I personally think that the centralized training system in PBSI has detered the development of several potential talents (I will not name them). Some of them even chose to go overseas and join European clubs for more exposure while they are still young.

  7. #466
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    Since the advent of independent players in both Indonesia and Malaysia, these two countries seem to slip down in their world ranking.
    Maybe, statistics don't reveal everything. However, if Indonesia and Malaysia are further downgraded by emerging powers like Russia and Taiwan (already Japan is the equal of both Indonesia and Malaysia) then that says it all.
    Maybe it is best for BAM to let ZZ completely on his own. This way, if he makes it then this then shows independents in Malaysia is the way to go. If not, then ZZ and his supporters can either accept it or perhaps blame BAM for not meeting their demands. Either way, BAM is to blame!
    Come on fellows, be realistic.

  8. #467
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    Yup. Every player must 'think out of the box' also. Don't just think about self improvement. You need to study your closest opponent about their strength and weaknesses. Self also.

    If their ranking is higher than yourself given that their number of tournaments is the same, this means something is wrong. Analyze this every week. Planning is important. Not just brute force and win win win... and blaming others

  9. #468
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    While some of the independent players in Indonesia are relatively established players when they were in the national set-up (Pelatnas) like Taufik Hidayat, Vita Marissa, Alvent Yulianto Chandra, Markis Kido/Hendra Setiawan; there are those who actually benefit from going independent or returning back to club, as compared to remain in Pelatnas.

    Undoubtedly, the established players do suffer a bit in terms of rankings decline: mostly due to injury issues (Kido/Hendra) or motivational issue (Taufik). Taufik was still ranked at No 2 in early 2011 as an independent player. Don't forget also that Kido/Hendra also won the Asian Games Gold Medal as an independent player.

    Those who actually see improvements after they left the national set-up include: Tommy Sugiarto (his World Ranking increased from 100++ in early 2010 to now 17), with a few titles in his belt too. Similarly, Alamsyah Yunus also saw his ranking increase from as low as 167 when he was still in Pelatnas in early 2010 to as high as 19 in early last year. He had also won a few titles. Nadya Melati also sees her world ranking climb to as high as in the top 10 with Vita Marissa.

    I just find it mind-boggling that some people still insist entering the national set-up is the best (and perhaps only) option, when clearly, we have seen in INA that clubs do have world-class facilities and coaches too. To the extent that some players actually come to realise that it is actually better for them to remain in clubs under the tutelage of world class coaches and the promise of exposure international tournaments vs rotting in training in the national set-up.

    Back to Zul, clearly, he and his dad have seen how the senior players have failed to make the grades (so far) while at BAM, despite the supposedly world class training and sparing sessions (with Dato Lee perhaps). And as eaglehelang mentioned, he will be even lower in the pecking-order in terms of tournament exposure. These are valid reasons as to why he chose to stick with KLRC.

    KLRC may be lagging behind Djarum, Jaya Raya, etc. But, they have invested in a few established players before (including Zhou Mi and Chinese-Taipei players a few years ago, correct me if I am wrong) and they are still sponsoring active players like Pi Hongyan, Petya Nedeltcheva, etc. I am sure Dr. Andrew Kam knows a gem when he sees one (in Zul). So, I think he will support Zul in his journey to be a World Class player.

  10. #469
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    As I posted earlier, we are quite different in our thinking. Let's not go on arguing who is right or wrong. We can both be right and wrong.

    What I am saying is: Since Zulfadli Zulkifli wishes to do it his way, he gets my full support. Even his father thinks like me, allowing Zulfadli Zulkifli to decide to go playing independently.

    I have already posted how unhappy I was, when Chen Hong, Zhou Mi, Zhang Beiwen, etc, etc, ...... all wished to continue playing Badminton tournaments; But because they were under their National Associations, when their associations said "You shall play no more", these players cannot play.

    Just imagine if they were independent players, and BWF allow them to play even though their National Associations don't. How glad can we be, as Badminton fans, when we can still watch our favourite players continuing to play when they wanted to.

    Check if I have posted with errors (in English) like you have mentioned in the other thread; because I have written this in a hurry.
    .
    Unfortunately, I don't think your "lip-service" support is good enough!

    The people who suffered are the players, not you. These are the players who may have lost their livelihood.

    Why don't you advise those players to go independent, which is your favorite solution. Find sponsors for them! Then you'll be a happy man to see them playing again.

  11. #470
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    fyi, all these players have fb. You can also go thro their 'friends' to send them the important messages. Just like some spy jobs. Hope this helps. The world is interconnected.

  12. #471
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    While some of the independent players in Indonesia are relatively established players when they were in the national set-up (Pelatnas) like Taufik Hidayat, Vita Marissa, Alvent Yulianto Chandra, Markis Kido/Hendra Setiawan; there are those who actually benefit from going independent or returning back to club, as compared to remain in Pelatnas.

    Undoubtedly, the established players do suffer a bit in terms of rankings decline: mostly due to injury issues (Kido/Hendra) or motivational issue (Taufik). Taufik was still ranked at No 2 in early 2011 as an independent player. Don't forget also that Kido/Hendra also won the Asian Games Gold Medal as an independent player.

    Those who actually see improvements after they left the national set-up include: Tommy Sugiarto (his World Ranking increased from 100++ in early 2010 to now 17), with a few titles in his belt too. Similarly, Alamsyah Yunus also saw his ranking increase from as low as 167 when he was still in Pelatnas in early 2010 to as high as 19 in early last year. He had also won a few titles. Nadya Melati also sees her world ranking climb to as high as in the top 10 with Vita Marissa.

    I just find it mind-boggling that some people still insist entering the national set-up is the best (and perhaps only) option, when clearly, we have seen in INA that clubs do have world-class facilities and coaches too. To the extent that some players actually come to realise that it is actually better for them to remain in clubs under the tutelage of world class coaches and the promise of exposure international tournaments vs rotting in training in the national set-up.

    Back to Zul, clearly, he and his dad have seen how the senior players have failed to make the grades (so far) while at BAM, despite the supposedly world class training and sparing sessions (with Dato Lee perhaps). And as eaglehelang mentioned, he will be even lower in the pecking-order in terms of tournament exposure. These are valid reasons as to why he chose to stick with KLRC.

    KLRC may be lagging behind Djarum, Jaya Raya, etc. But, they have invested in a few established players before (including Zhou Mi and Chinese-Taipei players a few years ago, correct me if I am wrong) and they are still sponsoring active players like Pi Hongyan, Petya Nedeltcheva, etc. I am sure Dr. Andrew Kam knows a gem when he sees one (in Zul). So, I think he will support Zul in his journey to be a World Class player.
    I think each country will evolve its own system in due course, depending on circumstances. And it must take time for producing results.

    As of now INA is far ahead of MAS or even others in Asia, in developing independent players as there are more private corporations that are keen in supporting badminton and taking over some responsibilities from PBSI, which could have its hands full with limited resources. Do not forget that many of the current independent players had their early training in Pelatnas, so we can't say all the credit goes to the private sponsors. And while these independent players have made some headway, they have not won significant world ranking to make heads turn.

    The real assessment comes when independent players that are entirely trained by private clubs compete with those from Pelantas at the international level. However it will take some time for this to happen.

    As of now, Japan seems to be quite successful in producing good players. And I think it is not the private clubs there that are contributing to its success. The same may also be said of KOR, TPE, THA and IND.
    So how much more must be said of "independent players" versus their national association counterparts?

    To me, KLRC's mission is too diverse. It is good to see the independent players from many parts of the world being supported financially, even though many of them have been more or less discarded by their national associations. But KLRC must pay more attention to its own nationals. And if it is really serious in developing world champions, it must upgrade its own infrastructure, if it hasn't done so already. And it also involves appointing world-class coaches to train its players. KLRC should have facilties and incentives better than BAM if it wants to attract talents. Will KLRC be up to it? Will ZZ be able to replace LCW under KLRC's mentorship?

  13. #472
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up We should look at Badminton as a sport (period)

    .
    Post #468 from badMania gives a good and fair comment, giving examples of many players who have performed successfully as independent players.

    Unfortunately, many people are still not convinced that independent players can make it as top players. In fact, they frown on players wishing to play independently.

    For me, although I am a fan of players wishing to train/play independently, I am also a fan of players who train/play under their national associations. For example, I am a fan of LCW (under BAM), Lin Dan (under CBA), Wang Yihan (under CBA), etc, etc, ...

    However, I would give the freedom of choice to players, whether they want to play as independent players or not. I care more for the players, not their associations.

    We should look at Badminton as a sport (period).

    But sometimes, national associations don't look at Badminton as a sport. They sometimes get influenced from politicians and they sometimes care less for their players. A good example is CBA.

    CBA is so state-controlled that their players have no say. There were many past good CHN players who could have continued playing, if they could play as independent players. CBA rules say "No players can play for China if they are not under CBA".

    I have this dream;

    (1) Have all players be selected to participate if they are good enough. It doesn't matter if they are trained by themselves, by their private coaches, by their clubs or by their national associations.

    (2) Have sponsors giving monies to support players, not just to clubs or national associations. Why? Because sometimes non-playing people use the monies for non-Badminton purposes.

    (3) Have BWF focusing more on players, not on national associations. In past years, when Badminton was less popular, BWF needed national associations for support. Now, we have many private companies involved, for example; Yonex, Li Ning, Victor, OSIM, etc, etc, ......

    When the above 3 points can be realised, I am sure our Badminton would become a real sport (and no longer a political game).
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 01-20-2012 at 02:21 AM.

  14. #473
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    I believe that Indonesia, being the leader in going the "private clubs" path with Taufik Hidayat as the flag bearer, will decline the most as a world badminton power in the coming years. When the country's shining light leads the pack to leave the national team it signals the beginning of the great fall.
    This has to do with setting a bad example and sets in a cycle of collapsing morale among the others. In only a few years TH has become perhaps the fastest declining 5 top singles player in the world. Now only his past glories give him some semblance of respect. This eroding morale has now spread to their MD, XD, WS, WD.
    I predict Indonesia will be lucky to scrape past Japan in their Thomas Cup encounter now. In the next 5 years they will even fall to the likes of countries like Taiwan, Russia, Thailand!
    Pls look at the BIG PICTURE! Yes, TH may be doing better than the other Indonesian players in the national team, but he is slipping when compared with the world, and the others who look up to him have their hearts reaped out with no more 'Yes, I can' attitude. But still the blame for Indonesia's decline will be on the national body and not the private clubs. Perhaps this is the root cause-others are to blame instead of looking yourself in the mirror-of the problem. In other words, not having the humility or ability to think outside the box that distinguishes between ASEAN countries and East Asian countries.
    Lee Chong Wei has fortunately decided to stay and this has at least slowed down the country's decline at a slower rate than Indonesia's.

  15. #474
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    Damn. I wish everyone would support extreme power, then I can support other up coming players... I wonder why why why.. lmao...

  16. #475
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    Damn. I wish everyone would support extreme power, then I can support other up coming players... I wonder why why why.. lmao...
    I think this is attributed to "extreme egoism".

  17. #476
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    Ya lor... not enuf mulla to fight Yao Ming and LCW. I curse their fans... lol.

    Any bankers to splash some money to me?? lol. Rich tai tais also accepted.

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