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  1. #494
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    ok ok.. bring zz to singapore. We'll treat him like a King... lol. A gem.

  2. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    ok ok.. bring zz to singapore. We'll treat him like a King... lol. A gem.
    Yes, why not? TH tried to do it once sometime ago, even insisting on bringing his own baggage (personal coach) along.
    Perhaps ZZ can try the same thing, including bringing his father as a personal coach, and see if Singapore will take him in. This might send a shock to BAM who would then be forced to give ZZ preferential treatment.

  3. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    ok ok.. bring zz to singapore. We'll treat him like a King... lol. A gem.
    Yes, why not? TH tried to do it once sometime ago, even insisting on bringing his own baggage (personal coach) along.
    Perhaps ZZ can try the same thing, including bringing his father as a personal coach, and see if Singapore will take him in. This might send a shock to BAM who would then be forced to give ZZ preferential treatment.

  4. #497
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Ho Ho, so the 'supreme power' is trying to lure SIN into the dispute. Good try for one who is not even a Singaporean although he used the pronoun "we".

    I think SIN has now in place a program to develop our own youngsters. We can do with less problems.

  5. #498
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    Any problem with we? Discrimination to SPR or FT huh? Sports School no SPR or FT? lol

  6. #499
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    This is not discrimination in the real sense of the word. Just that that if you are not a Singaporean you should not try to speak on our behalf, especially on sensitive issues.

    Even as a Singaporean I would not even try to act on behalf of the SBA. You are treating such matters rather lightly without second thoughts.

    PRs in Singapore are there on a mutually beneficial basis. As long as work is available in Singapore and they are satisfied with the terms and conditions of their employment, then they will remain, otherwise they will return to their home countries or elsewhere. To them Singapore is a just a temporary residence unless they decide to become citizens with Singapore's concurence.

    Students are entirely a different category. We welcome foreign students and even provide scholarships to promising ASEAN students. We even have a few students in our Sports School but places are limited as preference is given to our own citizens who qualify.

    So non-Singapore citizens ought to behave in a more appropriate manner especially on sensitive issues, particularly involving neighboring countries.

  7. #500
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    wow, i am touched. better don't bother to even think about it you are not a singaporean.

    lucky for malaysian. considered you have a free voice.

    are there a singaporean agreeing to zz joining in?

  8. #501
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Players not funded by tax-payers are independent players

    .
    From Post #481;
    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    This interesting thing about Zulfadli Zulkifli is that he wishes to do it his way - independent from BAM.
    From Post #492;
    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    So Chris' frequent rhetoric that BAM is biased against independent players should be thrown out of the window once and for all.

    I agree that since ZZ chose to remain 'independent' with KLRC, he should not count on BAM to help him at all. He and some others here should not insist that BAM should release LCW to spar with him. He has to prove he can succeed without BAM.

    Talking about being 'independent' ZZ's current relationship with KLRC cannot be considered as such. To me, being independent means you don't rely on anybody but yourself to get everything done.

    In that sense, the so-called 'independent' players that are tied to the clubs in Indonesia are not strictly independent. They have also to abide by the rules of the clubs before they get their pay checks or allowances.

    Perhaps in badminton Taufik Hidayat is the true independent player.


    Like most of his counterparts in tennis, I guess he has to arrange everything himself - from engaging a coach to arranging for flight and accommodation to his next tournament.

    So please don't tell me that ZZ is an independent player that has been acclaimed so often here.
    Sometimes, some posters here look at the issue from a different concept/perspective.

    To me, people in BAM are civil/public servants. BAM is funded by Malaysian tax-payers. Even ZZ, ZZ's father and KLRC hold a 0.000...001% say on BAM, since 0.000...001% of their taxes paid go to BAM.

    OTOH, KLRC is not funded by Malaysian tax-payers. In this context, KLRC is an independent body.

    People in KLRC are also independent, since they are not funded by tax-payers. Therefore, from this perspective, ZZ is an independent player since he is attached to KLRC.

    Regarding Taufik Hidayat, IMHO, he has formed his own club/school. Have a read of this link, located at:
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ool-in-Jakarta

    Similar to KLRC, Taufik and his club/school is also intending to go independent. His club/school is not funded by Indonesian tax-payers.

    What I am saying is - Any players or clubs not funded by tax-payers are independent bodies.

    Soon, I would also expect Taufik's club/school to be sponsoring players. And these players are also independent players, because they are not funded by Indonesia tax-players (although they could be funded by other private sponsors).
    .

  9. #502
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Players not funded by tax-payers are independent players

    .
    From Post #481;
    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    This interesting thing about Zulfadli Zulkifli is that he wishes to do it his way - independent from BAM.
    From Post #492;
    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    So Chris' frequent rhetoric that BAM is biased against independent players should be thrown out of the window once and for all.

    I agree that since ZZ chose to remain 'independent' with KLRC, he should not count on BAM to help him at all. He and some others here should not insist that BAM should release LCW to spar with him. He has to prove he can succeed without BAM.

    Talking about being 'independent' ZZ's current relationship with KLRC cannot be considered as such. To me, being independent means you don't rely on anybody but yourself to get everything done.

    In that sense, the so-called 'independent' players that are tied to the clubs in Indonesia are not strictly independent. They have also to abide by the rules of the clubs before they get their pay checks or allowances.

    Perhaps in badminton Taufik Hidayat is the true independent player.


    Like most of his counterparts in tennis, I guess he has to arrange everything himself - from engaging a coach to arranging for flight and accommodation to his next tournament.

    So please don't tell me that ZZ is an independent player that has been acclaimed so often here.
    Sometimes, some posters here look at the issue from a different concept/perspective.

    To me, people in BAM are civil/public servants. BAM is funded by Malaysian tax-payers. Even ZZ, ZZ's father and KLRC hold a 0.000...001% say on BAM, since 0.000...001% of their taxes paid go to BAM.

    OTOH, KLRC is not funded by Malaysian tax-payers. In this context, KLRC is an independent body.

    People in KLRC are also independent, since they are not funded by tax-payers. Therefore, from this perspective, ZZ is an independent player.

    Regarding Taufik Hidayat, IMHO, he has formed his own club/school. Have a read of this link, located at:
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ool-in-Jakarta

    Similar to KLRC, Taufik and his club/school is also intending to go independent body.

    What I am saying is - Any players or clubs not funded by tax-payers are independent bodies.

    Soon, I would also expect Taufik's club/school to be sponsoring players. And these players are also independent players, because they are not funded by Indonesia tax-players (although they could be funded by other private sponsors).
    .

  10. #503
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    Since we sorted out the independant player/bodies definition.
    For me a more relevant query should be the following :-
    What is the definition of the best pick for MY?
    What are the procedures/methods/criterias that should be used to ensure the best is picked?

  11. #504
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    Ranking and form of players should be the first criteria.

    Obviously, Lee Chong Wei and Mohd Hafiz Hashim will top the list due to their current ranking and the fact that there's no other younger MAS players that could even beat Hafiz at the moment.

    Then, for the other players (Daren Liew, Chong Wei Feng, Mohd Arif Latif, Iskandar, etc), I would think that a selection trial should be held to decide the best 2 players to represent MAS for the Thomas Cup Qualifying campaign. That would be the fairest approach.

    Unfortunately, as described by the excellent article in the Star a few days ago (written by R. Manogaran), Zul was not even given the chance for this selection trial. This problem was also seen in MD, where Gan Teik Chai/Tan Bin Shen (also of KLRC) were not selected for the WC 2011, despite their ranking as the 2nd ranked MD in Malaysia then.

    Once again, to quote parts of the article:
    Therein lies the problem. Instead of encouraging and working with clubs, BAM, fearing the erosion of their total domination, have chosen to alienate them.

    They have chosen to ignore the talented Zulfadli simply because he is outside their control, belonging to an outfit they see as being too independent and wilful to their liking.

    Instead of a closed shop and a closed-mind, BAM should collaborate with the clubs and others to produce champions in the mould of Chong Wei.


    I think the author had correctly identified the problem in BAM of not collaborating with the clubs (like Nusa or KLRC) in striving for the best for Malaysia badminton.

    PBSI is guilty of this too, with the exclusion of Vita Marissa/Nadya Melati from the Uber Cup Qualifying campaign, despite their higher ranking (WR11). But at least, I and INA other badminton fans are quietly confident that the talents will keep on coming out from the clubs and as long as there are excellent coaches in clubs (Sigit Budiarto, Antonius, Sigit Pamungkas, Sarwendah). We are have the regular Domestic Circuits and other privately-sponsored tourneys (like Astec and Pertamina Opens) that will ensure these youngsters have been exposed to competitions.

    And don't forget, it's the clubs that supply players to the National Team in INA....without the presence of these clubs, there will be no National Team.

  12. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    Ranking and form of players should be the first criteria.

    Obviously, Lee Chong Wei and Mohd Hafiz Hashim will top the list due to their current ranking and the fact that there's no other younger MAS players that could even beat Hafiz at the moment.

    Then, for the other players (Daren Liew, Chong Wei Feng, Mohd Arif Latif, Iskandar, etc), I would think that a selection trial should be held to decide the best 2 players to represent MAS for the Thomas Cup Qualifying campaign. That would be the fairest approach.

    Unfortunately, as described by the excellent article in the Star a few days ago (written by R. Manogaran), Zul was not even given the chance for this selection trial. This problem was also seen in MD, where Gan Teik Chai/Tan Bin Shen (also of KLRC) were not selected for the WC 2011, despite their ranking as the 2nd ranked MD in Malaysia then.

    Once again, to quote parts of the article:
    Therein lies the problem. Instead of encouraging and working with clubs, BAM, fearing the erosion of their total domination, have chosen to alienate them.

    They have chosen to ignore the talented Zulfadli simply because he is outside their control, belonging to an outfit they see as being too independent and wilful to their liking.

    Instead of a closed shop and a closed-mind, BAM should collaborate with the clubs and others to produce champions in the mould of Chong Wei.


    I think the author had correctly identified the problem in BAM of not collaborating with the clubs (like Nusa or KLRC) in striving for the best for Malaysia badminton.

    PBSI is guilty of this too, with the exclusion of Vita Marissa/Nadya Melati from the Uber Cup Qualifying campaign, despite their higher ranking (WR11). But at least, I and INA other badminton fans are quietly confident that the talents will keep on coming out from the clubs and as long as there are excellent coaches in clubs (Sigit Budiarto, Antonius, Sigit Pamungkas, Sarwendah). We are have the regular Domestic Circuits and other privately-sponsored tourneys (like Astec and Pertamina Opens) that will ensure these youngsters have been exposed to competitions.

    And don't forget, it's the clubs that supply players to the National Team in INA....without the presence of these clubs, there will be no National Team.
    Agreed. MY sports organisations will never change, it is run by a bunch of idiots who care less about the sports than their own interests.

    BAM got lots of funding so they can send their players for all the competitions and out rank the cash strapped club players who have to be selective in their tournaments. Unless BAM acts in the best interest of the sport, or an unexpected talent like LCW is discovered by the clubs, I dont see how they can survive financially.

    Sometimes I watch the excellent sports talk show in Astro Arena where they bring up issues about Malaysian sports. I recall watching a session about Sepak Takraw and the head of the organisation practically said "He does what he does for the sake of the race, pride and our legacy". No wonder we are no longer a power house in Sepak Takraw, same goes for Hockey. With this type of mentality I see a bleak future for Malaysian sports.

  13. #506
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    From Post #481;


    From Post #492;


    Sometimes, some posters here look at the issue from a different concept/perspective.

    To me, people in BAM are civil/public servants. BAM is funded by Malaysian tax-payers. Even ZZ, ZZ's father and KLRC hold a 0.000...001% say on BAM, since 0.000...001% of their taxes paid go to BAM.

    OTOH, KLRC is not funded by Malaysian tax-payers. In this context, KLRC is an independent body.

    People in KLRC are also independent, since they are not funded by tax-payers. Therefore, from this perspective, ZZ is an independent player.

    Regarding Taufik Hidayat, IMHO, he has formed his own club/school. Have a read of this link, located at:
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ool-in-Jakarta

    Similar to KLRC, Taufik and his club/school is also intending to go independent body.

    What I am saying is - Any players or clubs not funded by tax-payers are independent bodies.

    Soon, I would also expect Taufik's club/school to be sponsoring players. And these players are also independent players, because they are not funded by Indonesia tax-players (although they could be funded by other private sponsors).
    .

    So that's your narrow definition of "independent" i.e. "not funded by taxpayers".

    But the more authoritative meaning by Oxford Dictionary is as follows:

    1. free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.
    2. not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.
    3. not connected with another; separate.

    Does ZZ's situation vastly differ from the above. Is he not subjected to KLRC's conditions, or dependent on KLRC for his subsistence? Is he not associated with KLRC?

    What is the great difference between corporate funding and government funding?

    Corporations made their money from tax-payers by charging them (customers) a profit. Government finances its various projects from taxes collected from corporations and the public and in most cases, much more are collected from corporations than from the public (in Singapore's case too).

    So in the end, corporations make their money from tax-payers too. And according to your definition, they should not be considered "independent".

    You brought up the case of Taufit Hidayat. I think he is doing things his own independent way without relying on others. He is a good example of an independent player.

  14. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    So that's your narrow definition of "independent" i.e. "not funded by taxpayers".

    But the more authoritative meaning by Oxford Dictionary is as follows:

    1. free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.
    2. not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.
    3. not connected with another; separate.

    Does ZZ's situation vastly differ from the above. Is he not subjected to KLRC's conditions, or dependent on KLRC for his subsistence? Is he not associated with KLRC?

    What is the great difference between corporate funding and government funding?

    Corporations made their money from tax-payers by charging them (customers) a profit. Government finances its various projects from taxes collected from corporations and the public and in most cases, much more are collected from corporations than from the public (in Singapore's case too).

    So in the end, corporations make their money from tax-payers too. And according to your definition, they should not be considered "independent".

    You brought up the case of Taufit Hidayat. I think he is doing things his own independent way without relying on others. He is a good example of an independent player.
    I heard Taufik is very rich and is married to a general's daughter.
    Arguing the fine point of independent is not addressing the issue at hand which is "club players being ignored by national associations in their selection".

  15. #508
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    In Msia badminton, Zul is an independent player. He is not a product of BJSS or in BAM. Any player not in the national association, ie BAM, ie no governnent funding/tax payers money, is regarded as independent player. Public sector and private sector is very different - private sector sell product/service, consumer want to buy then only buy. Public sector every tax paying citizen has to pay, whether using the facilities/product,etc or not.

    If want to consider so broad, then all players with private funding also not fully independent as they have racket sponsors. Thailand's Boonsak, Sudket, Saralee, Songphon, Kunchala are regarded as independent players as they are no longer part of Thai BA team

    If I dont use Forza racket or buy gold from Andrew Kam's co or buy stuff from any other of Zul's sponsors, then I dont contribute $$$ to Zul's career.
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 01-25-2012 at 01:11 AM.

  16. #509
    Regular Member undeadshot's Avatar
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    It's not entirely true that Hafiz is unbeaten by other Malaysians. Liew Daren and Arif both have beaten Hafiz over the past year.

    But I doubt Zulfadli can do better than Hafiz, maybe his father wanted him to be given a chance to be a reserve, to soak in the atmosphere.

  17. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by undeadshot View Post
    It's not entirely true that Hafiz is unbeaten by other Malaysians. Liew Daren and Arif both have beaten Hafiz over the past year.

    But I doubt Zulfadli can do better than Hafiz, maybe his father wanted him to be given a chance to be a reserve, to soak in the atmosphere.
    I have seen the match Hafiz played against Lin Dan. He was excellent and could have won it. However his yoyo performance is scary. Does everyone remember the previous Thomas Cup where he played like 50% and pissed off the whole country, was it against Japan??? .. cant remember.

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