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  1. #511
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogerv2 View Post
    I heard Taufik is very rich and is married to a general's daughter.
    Arguing the fine point of independent is not addressing the issue at hand which is "club players being ignored by national associations in their selection".
    I agree with you. However, one should not be misled by Chris' biased and narrow definition of "independent."

    As regards the selection of MAS TC representatives, it is not entirely wrong to chose from those who have a higher world ranking for a start. As both LCW and HH's standard are considered higher than the present national squad members, the remaining slots should be fought among those then available.

    I suppose the selectors do not consider ZZ's world ranking to be good enough.

    Yes one can say TH is a very lucky man!

  2. #512
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Default BAM's sources of funds should not discriminate it from those of private organisations

    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    In Msia badminton, Zul is an independent player. He is not a product of BJSS or in BAM. Any player not in the national association, ie BAM, ie no governnent funding/tax payers money, is regarded as independent player. Public sector and private sector is very different - private sector sell product/service, consumer want to buy then only buy. Public sector every tax paying citizen has to pay, whether using the facilities/product,etc or not.

    If want to consider so broad, then all players with private funding also not fully independent as they have racket sponsors. Thailand's Boonsak, Sudket, Saralee, Songphon, Kunchala are regarded as independent players as they are no longer part of Thai BA team

    If I dont use Forza racket or buy gold from Andrew Kam's co or buy stuff from any other of Zul's sponsors, then I dont contribute $$$ to Zul's career.

    I would have considered ZZ an independent player if he is not part of, and linked to, the KLRC outfit, if he sources independently for his own sponsors for financial and non-financial support e.g. flight tickets, hotel accommodation, badminton equipment, etc, etc. The emphasis here is that ZZ must do all these things by himself if he wants to enjoy that sort of independent image enjoyed by many tennis professionals.

    By being not a product of BJSS or BAM does not automatically give ZZ that "independent" identity as he still has to resort to KLRC for various support and has been associated with the club publicly. And KLRC has proudly acknowledged that ZZ is its prized possession.

    How an organisation earns its revenue to continue its existence should not be the main criterion for distinguishing between "independent" or "non-independent". Both private and public organizations need to generate income to finance their projects and programs. As I've said private corporations make money from their sale of goods or services by adding a profit margin. If you don't buy from them, other customers do otherwise the corporation will be out of business and become bankrupt and nothing will go towards supporting ZZ.

    Similarly, the government can only survive if it has enough tax collections from profitable private corporations and higher income individual earners. I have emphasized that most times more taxes are collected from private corporations, not individual taxpayers, unless the country concerned discourages private enterprise and foreign investment.

    If a government is mismanaged as in some of the European countries which are now in great financial difficulty, such a government may have to borrow money to stay alive. It may also have to request that existing foreign loans that are still owing be reduced or totally forgiven. In that sense the Malaysian government is still doing well to be able to disperse funds to BAM to carry on with its programs.

    But please note that in general, as in Singapore's case, more taxes are collected from private organisations than from individuals like you and me. As for individual taxpayers, it is often quoted that an estimated 80% of taxes collected are derived from the high income earners. Many low-income earners do not pay tax at all. And BAM also has giant private corporations like Maybank and other interested sponsors to support its activities too! So not all is tax-payers' money, please. And the money collected are from the higher income groups.

    So why is this unnecessary outcry and bias against BAM being funded from taxes and players who benefited from BAM's support are classified as "not independent"?
    Last edited by Loh; 01-25-2012 at 02:37 AM.

  3. #513
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    Why don t we just keep things simple. An independent player is one who is not part of the BA of his/her country. So HH, ZZ, WCH are all independents.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    ok ok.. bring zz to singapore. We'll treat him like a King... lol. A gem.
    I don t think ZZ can even take a game off our Derek Wong or Ashton. And both DW and Ashton don t even have enough or more tournament exposure opportunities compared to ZZ. Some fans just judge quality by glamour or history-creating titles.

  5. #515
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    Why don t we just keep things simple. An independent player is one who is not part of the BA of his/her country. So HH, ZZ, WCH are all independents.
    Or just non-BAM.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    I don t think ZZ can even take a game off our Derek Wong or Ashton. And both DW and Ashton don t even have enough or more tournament exposure opportunities compared to ZZ. Some fans just judge quality by glamour or history-creating titles.
    Sure about this ... a win rather than a game would make your statement more credible. Who are these guys anyway, never heard their names before.

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    I don t think ZZ can even take a game off our Derek Wong or Ashton. And both DW and Ashton don t even have enough or more tournament exposure opportunities compared to ZZ. Some fans just judge quality by glamour or history-creating titles.
    I would agree with this, I think Derek and Ashton are very talented and have a lots of potential! and would beat Zulfadli in 2 games.

    What age is Derek an Ashton btw?

  8. #518
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    Given ZZ age and titles he got, he is a talent. So, given enough time and exposure, if you compare apple to apple, I think ZZ can take them easily. Given the same age. Of course I doubt zz can beat them now.

    So, in coaching terms, (tips for you). If you hit 10,000 shots, that is good, if you hit 10,001 shots, that is even better. Given the quality is the same. Hope this helps. It's called experience. You can try the drill and am sure you get what I mean.

    If ZZ can be trained under Misbun, am sure he will soar like a Tiger (not a beer ok).

  9. #519
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    Given ZZ age and titles he got, he is a talent. So, given enough time and exposure, if you compare apple to apple, I think ZZ can take them easily. Given the same age. Of course I doubt zz can beat them now.

    So, in coaching terms, (tips for you). If you hit 10,000 shots, that is good, if you hit 10,001 shots, that is even better. Given the quality is the same. Hope this helps. It's called experience. You can try the drill and am sure you get what I mean.

    If ZZ can be trained under Misbun, am sure he will soar like a Tiger (not a beer ok).
    There are too many "IFs" in your post.

    Maybe eagle will not agree with you that "he will soar like a Tiger".

    And wait until fatigue sets in after the first 1,000 shots.

  10. #520
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up A timely wake-up call for BAM

    .
    This was posted by The Star (Friday January 20, 2012).

    http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.a...052&sec=sports

    ====== * ====== part of article ====== * ======

    Chong Wei’s brutally frank assessment that Malaysia might not even qualify for the Thomas Cup Finals, never mind win it, is a timely wake-up call for BAM.

    That BAM have been derelict in their responsibility, despite the resources at their command, is evidenced by the stark lack of new talent capable of being world beaters.

    The only youngster with star potential is junior world champion Zulfadli Zulkifli, but he is a product of KLRC, a club perceived as a rival by BAM.

    Therein lies the problem. Instead of encouraging and working with clubs, BAM, fearing the erosion of their total domination, have chosen to alienate them.

    They only recalled the increasingly erratic Hafiz Hashim, who left BAM to join KLRC, because they had no other option as he is, at No. 33, the next highest ranked Malaysian player in the world.

    ====== * ====== part of article ====== * ======
    .

  11. #521
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    I don't know how many clubs there are in MAS that can be compared with KLRC to start off with.

    As far as I can recall, BAM invited ZZ to join them but he refused and chose to join KLRC instead. So how can BAM not treat KLRC as a rival? I'm sure KLRC also considers BAM a competitor.

    And how can one expect BAM help rival KLRC to develop its talents? KLRC should use its own resources to help ZZ to maintain its independence and not rely on BAM.

  12. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    As far as I can recall, BAM invited ZZ to join them but he refused and chose to join KLRC instead. So how can BAM not treat KLRC as a rival? I'm sure KLRC also considers BAM a competitor.
    This is exactly the narrow-minded mindset which the author of the article has pinpointed so-correctly. No wonder Malaysia finds it difficult to unearth young talents nowadays as BAM is so far unwilling to cooperate with the clubs...instead, they treat any opposing voices as rivals! So far, the young talents in Malaysia are mostly products of the BJSS.

    There's several cases of young club players INA who declined the invitation to join the National Team like Zul (eg: Melati Daeva Oktaviani recently) as the clubs want to groom them into better players first before they are released.

    That's why I am thankful that in INA, PBSI is at least not as narrow-minded as compared to BAM.
    It will be unthinkable if PBSI were to treat these clubs as rivals simply because some young players refused the invitation join the National Team.

    Why is it so difficult for some people here to accept that clubs and the national organization can work hand-in-hand for the progress of badminton in a particular country? Why should the National Association treat clubs as rivals?

    BAM should at least learn from Badminton Denmark in terms of how it works hand-in-hand with the provincial clubs to unearth talents like Viktor Axelsen. The system is more or less similar to what is adopted in INA whereby each city (esp the big ones) will have at least one badminton club.

    Indeed, each club in INA also has one hall whereby their young recruits are trained (like the Petamburan hall which I had visited whereby the doubles pairs of PB Djarum are trained). Clubs also provide an avenue for those who have retired from the National Team to return and contribute in the ways they see fit. If not for PB Djarum offering playing opportunities for Eng Hian (with Rian Sukmawan) after he retired from Pelatnas or coaching opportunities for Sigit Budiarto and Antonius in the past few years; they may end up working elsewhere now.

    The following is taken from the Badminton Denmark website:
    "Playing badminton in Denmark is very easy. Almost every town – big or small – has a club or more than one and they also have a hall to play in. In Denmark it’s also possible to play a team tournament and individual tournaments whether you are an elite or non-elite player and no matter your age.

    Because of this unique structure and approximately 550 member clubs, the Badminton Association of Denmark (BAD) cannot just think and allocate resources to the elite. If it wasn’t for the non-elite, there wouldn’t be an elite and the other way around. There has to be offers to the non-elite players and clubs – and there are."

    KLRC has started the initiative of finding a talent in Zul and grooming him into winners of AJC & WJC so far. They also roped in Cheah Soon Kit as the head-coach a few years ago, which is another good move. I really hope Misbun is also sticking to his goal of unearthing more talents in Nusa Mansuri and groom them into potential winners. You have to start from somewhere.....and once these 2 clubs taste success, it will influence others to start a club of their own and join in the regeneration process.

    Why can't BAM use their resources to help promote talent-unearthing process through clubs like KLRC or Nusa Mansuri? They will benefit from the recognition also if these clubs produce talents that represent Malaysia (like Zul last year).
    Last edited by badMania; 01-26-2012 at 11:13 PM.

  13. #523
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    By right, BAM should not regard the clubs as rival/competitor but as a complement to the national association. Even after the NSC voiced that it would be better if more private sectors can come forward to help in the mission of developing young talents, BAM did not change their policy. Andrew Kam showed he's being broad minded by saying if Zul wants to go over to BAM it's ok, he's just interested in helping Msia badminton.

    KLRC did not ask for BAM's help, Zul's father did, that too in terms of sparring with LCW. I believe if ZUl had joined BJSS/BAM,there would not had been a 1st AJC and WJC for Msia, considering all the politics that goes on there. Look at what happened to Iskandar.

    THere had been a number of issues over the years that show how BAM wants to be the association to provide badminton talents. From Gan,TBS, OSH, Lin wanting to leave BAM to Gan/TBS not being selected for WC, to Zakry/Fairuz not being allowed to spar with national team cos they not using Yonex logo on their shirt. All this does not help BAM's image

  14. #524
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    Precisely eaglehelang! Those of you who are truly concerned about Malaysian badminton will know better.

    I like how Dr. Andrew Kam and Misbun Sidek show their support for the talent regeneration process.
    Other National Associations like PBSI or Badminton Denmark themselves have to co-operate with the various clubs in their respective countries to promote and unearth regeneration process. So, I believe once the talents have dried up at BJSS, BAM will then be forced to look for other alternatives.

    And remember also, Viktor Axelsen is not simply a product of Badminton Denmark alone. He trained in his club (Odense BK) before he was called up to join the Danish Team.

  15. #525
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    I thought all along it was the state associations in Malaysia that help identify and develop young talents in their states and once they are ready, they will be released to the national asssociation, BAM, to be groomed further. That is because BAM is the recognized government supported entity charged with the development of national badminton players in Malaysia.

    But now we have KLRC which has publicly gone a step further to want to turn ZZ into a world beater and this is in direct competition with BAM. KLRC wants its name to be associated with success just as BAM wants its national players to achieve success. Sure the end result is that Malaysia will benefit if the players can become world champions.

    When two rivals meet head-on, don't expect them to give way and help the other to win. Narrow-mindedness doesn't not come into play here. It is a matter of survival. If KLRC becomes successful, BAM will be hurt, so BAM has to do something to prevent this from happening. If one is sensible and in his right mind, one does not help the enemy to defeat oneself.

    So don't expect BAM to lease LCW or other national trainees to KLRC to train or spar with ZZ in order to help ZZ become successful. KLRC must be able to command all its resources to combat BAM and if it feels it is not up to it, then it should release ZZ to BAM, as was the normal case, instead of fighting for personal glory and political victory.

  16. #526
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    Treating clubs as rivals to ensure BAM's own survival?? LOL....Good luck to BAM then if that is really their mind-set.

    And I repeat. Thanks God, we don't have such a situation in INA!

  17. #527
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    The irony is that BAM has to turn to Mohd Hafiz Hashim (now representing KLRC) for their own survival in the Thomas Cup Qualifying campaign.

    Imagine if KLRC (and Dr. Andrew Kam) is to treat BAM as a rival....they can just refuse to let Hafiz join up with the other players and let BAM rely only on the youngsters in the team event.

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