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  1. #409
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    I am afraid that we are going round-and-round in circle.

    I am saying that BAM (or other National Association) should look after ALL their players participating for Malaysia (or their countries). Currently, BAM doesn't care for players not playing under BAM, but playing for Malaysia.

    It looks like we need to return to around Post #170's of this thread;


    .
    So you are concerned with only who should represent MAS at important events like T&UC, Olympics, etc.

    I would say the best should represent the country. And how cN we ensure they are the best? Do we base solely on WR when we know this is only a rough guide, depending on whether a player is able to participate in as many BWF ranking points tournaments.
    Or do we need to conduct a national selection for prequalified players? How are preqified players selected? Etc. Etc, etc...

  2. #410
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    So you are concerned with only who should represent MAS at important events like T&UC, Olympics, etc.
    .
    No... I am concerned with ALL players who represent MAS in ANY tournaments. This is because tax-paying Malaysians should think that their monies should go to ALL Malaysian players, and not just to players under BAM.

    And BAM should be interested in ALL Malaysia's representative players, and not just in players under BAM.

    That's why I was so disappointed that WCH was left out (let's go back to around Post #170 of this thread)
    .

  3. #411
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    I would say the best should represent the country. And how cN we ensure they are the best? Do we base solely on WR when we know this is only a rough guide, depending on whether a player is able to participate in as many BWF ranking points tournaments.
    Or do we need to conduct a national selection for prequalified players? How are preqified players selected? Etc. Etc, etc...
    .
    Yes... We need to conduct a national selection (internal tournament) which includes ALL MAS players (players under BAM and/or not under BAM).

    IMHO, the best players/pairs of a selection tournament should be selected.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 12-25-2011 at 01:28 AM.

  4. #412
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    Yes... We need to conduct a national selection (internal tournament) which includes ALL MAS players (players under BAM and/or not under BAM).

    IMHO, the best players/pairs of a selection tournament should be selected.
    .
    And if some players are not available to attend the selection tournament, then an independent panel should be set up to decide if these players should be selected or not.

    But please don't allow BAM CTC members to select; It is expected that they would be biased, and they would give independent players no chance.
    .

  5. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    Remember LCW is brought through the BAM system and has done very well for MAS.
    I beg to differ.

    Despite the millions of ringgits of sponsorships by Proton and now Maybank, what has BAM achieved, except for a few All-England titles, Asian Games Gold, and World Junior titles?

    Has any MAS players won the World Championships title?

    Has any MAS players won the Olympics Gold Medal?

    No doubt, Lee Chong Wei is an exceptional player and he's so far the most consistent player in the past 10-20 years for Malaysia, consistently delivering titles after titles, despite missing the big ones. To a certain extent, Koo Kien Keat/Tan Boon Heong in MD can also be considered as one of BAM's few successful players. In WS, WD and XD, there are Wong Mew Choo (now a coach), Wong Pei Tty/Chin Ee Hui (and now Vivian Ho Kah Mun/Woon Khe Wei) and Chan Peng Soon/Goh Liu Ying who will perform brightly in some tourneys.

    But apart from these players in particular, is the system in BAM really the best? In particular, for Zulfadli Zulkiffli? A brief glance to the ranking table in MS will suggest otherwise. What are the achievements of the elite/back-up players so far? Ironally for BAM, the 2 players with the highest ranking players are Mohd Hafiz Hashim and Wong Choong Hann. If I recalled (do correct me if I am wrong here), he left BAM early this year simply because he felt he no longer possess the motivation to perform well and at the same time, he will hinder the progress of the younger players still in BAM.

    I will agree with Hafiz to a certain extent as BAM players are in particular spoon-fed, from training programs, travel arrangements, even dietary preparation. You don't have to do all those things yourselves. But at the same time, there's also no penalty from BAM whatsoever for underachievement. So, some of these players might be a bit too pampered and may not have the same motivation as an independent player. Losing is no big deal as the bills are paid by BAM and tax-payers! I also don't think they bother so much about their rankings.

    If Zul joins BAM, I am quite sure he will fall behind the pecking order. Meaning, there are already many seniors who joined before him that will be considered for international tourneys, before he will even get any chance.

    Therefore, I strongly agree that KLRC is probably the best option for him right now. Badminton today should be driven towards professionalism through clubs, not based on national association! Who says that an independent player cannot achieve greater things after he/she left the national team? Look at Tommy Sugiarto and Alamsyah Yunus. Their career basically flourish after they left Pelatnas. Fransiska Ratnasari also has a renewed career after she joined PB Djarum on her own accord.

    In contrast, some club players who were recruited into Pelatnas suffered from underachievement or lack of attention by coaches (since these young players are basically second-team players anyway) or lack of exposure to international tourneys (due to budget constraints). As a result, their career stalled right after they join the national team.

    Today, clubs in Indonesia and I believe in Malaysia have a professional set-up, with the appropriate coaches (some even arguably better than the ones in the national team) and facilities. Look at PB Djarum's training complex in Kudus (for singles) and Jakarta (for doubles). Similarly, KLRC is flushed with cash from Andrew Kam. He likes success and glory, so, I am quite sure, he will willingly groom Zulfadli Zulkifli so that he can reach his potential!

  6. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    I do however feel that a proper setup like BAM would have much greater resources than even a club like KLRC (I think) to offer to the committed trainee with aspirations. Not just with proper coaching but including other attendant facilities and services like gym, sports science, medical, physiotherapy, administration including arranging for flights, accommodation and even meals, etc, etc.

    If a player still wants to choose a club and not BAM, I feel it is such a waste.
    These are the comments that I personally disagree, after observing situations in INA and to a certain extent MAS. Don't talk about CHN because the club systems there are very different and basically, only national team players enjoy first priority in terms of tourneys selection etc.

    In INA, clubs like Djarum or Jaya Raya are arguably "richer" compared to Pelatnas. Since PB Djarum's initiative to send its players to international tourneys, we begin to see other big clubs like Jaya Raya and even Mutiara, Tangkas, SGS, and Jaya Raya Suryanaga sending their own players (in particular young players) to international tourneys.

    The clubs also have world class coaches like Sigit Budiarto and Antonius (ex World Champions and Olympics Bronze-medalist), Retno Kustiyah, Sigit Pamungkas (coach of Kido/Hendra who also left the National Team last year), etc. Not to mention the facilities: Djarum has a world-class training and coaching facility for Singles players in Kudus, while Jaya Raya is also planning to build one in Jakarta.

    There's also a concern from the clubs that once their young players are sent to the National Team, they have fewer exposure to international and even domestic tourneys (than if they continue to stay in their respective clubs). We know that exposure to tourneys is an important part of player's development.

    For doubles players, worse still, the new partnership performed worse than the original ones (since players from different clubs are typically matched together once they are in the national set-up). This has left many clubs pondering whether sending them to the National Team (Pelatnas) is it really to the best of the players' interests. They are now even considering not to send players in MD and WD to the national-team and plan to groom some of them into world-class status if the problem is not rectified.

    Based on these, I cannot see why if a player still choose a club over the national-team set-up, it will be such as a waste. In fact, it is the opposite. Tommy Sugiarto chooses to be independent than being a Pelatnas player. Look at how many tourneys he has the freedom to participate in (and won titles too). I doubt he will participate in those tourneys (especially the European ones) if he remains as a Pelatnas player!

  7. #415
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    .
    The 2 posts from badMania have highlighted the healthy and competitive nature between players and clubs in Indonesia.

    I believe that it should produce better players for Indonesia; It is better than sending all players to train at Pelatnas.
    .

  8. #416
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    .
    By the way, I also believe that for ZZ to become a better player (to be a world-class, top player), he could have a spell in training in different countries, like in Indonesia, China, Korea, etc, etc,...

    Badminton clubs are usually form because they love Badminton (the main reason); where governmental and political issues are usually not important.

    I am sure many clubs would welcome ZZ to train with them.

    ZZ, as an independent player, can select where to train, because he is not stuck with BAM.
    .

  9. #417
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default BAM choose the coach for Lee Chong Wei

    .
    I have just posted in Lee Chong Wei's thread.

    And I have given the quotes from LCW (from NST). I shall also copy and paste it here;

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    We can talk on and on, but there is really nothing that we (and LCW) can do in choosing coaches. Why? Because LCW is under BAM, and BAM choose the coach for him.

    Even LCW have said: "The question of whether there will be a change in my coaching is with BAM. I am under BAM and I will follow its rules".

    "I have spoken to Misbun recently and got some tips. However, I will follow what the BAM management tells me to do".

    Read more: Reunion on the cards - Badminton - New Straits Times http://www.nst.com.my/sports/badmint...#ixzz1hXLVTDq0
    .

  10. #418
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    I thank badMania for his inputs, especially on the professional scene in Indonesia.

    It is heartening to see that the private clubs have been in a strong and healthy position to supplant Pelantas. No wonder Pelantas needed private sponsorship to pay for Li Mao and company. There seems to be a lack of financial support from the government. The private clubs seem to be richer and are more interested in bringing Indonesian badminton back to its former glory days.

    However, I was referring mainly to the Malaysian scene and in particular the only club I know that is challenging BAM for badminton honours and that is KLRC. It must be admitted that MAS is different from INA in terms of club development. For MAS it is relatively new and whether there will be more participants willing to enter the scene in the near future is still in doubt.

    As I have stated earlier, BAM should be in a stronger position than KLRC to meet the needs of its trainees as it has strong government and private sector support and it has been in the business for a very long time, though not very much to show off in terms of producing world title winners in tournaments like the World Championships and the Olympics.

    INA has always been a badminton powerhouse ahead of MAS, generally speaking. Admittedly INA has had much greater success than MAS. MAS has not won any WC or Olympic titles while INA has captured 18 WC since 1977. But the drought came after 2007. So during the last three WC, even INA had to return home empty-handed.

    Why? Simply because of CHN's dominance if you look at the WC table!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BWF_World_Championships


    CHN has swept all the titles, except one, since 2009. Only DEN managed to take the XD title in 2009. I believe the private clubs in INA were already trying to produce their own stars during that period. But it must be Pelantas that helped produced the past WC winners.

    Except for Taufik Hidayat, ex-national players who left Pelantas to join the private clubs did not really do that well in the sense that they did not win major tournaments. It must also be highlighted that even such independent players have had their grounding and baptism of fire at Pelantas. Even TH is now fading and his confidence is only temporarily propped up with his win in today's India Open GP - a minor tournament.

    If INA can't even challenge CHN in the recent past, how does one expect MAS to do better? But at least MAS managed to produce a consistent WR1 player in LCW, a product under the BAM system. He might yet win the London Olympics next year. "Nothing is Impossible" says a diehard MAS fan and I agree.

    Yes, KLRC produced a WJC in ZZ. But how can one compare a junior with a senior WR1? They are miles apart!

    I concede though that a system is as good as it is. Politics can make it worse and much has to depend on the quality of trainees brought into the system for polishing.
    Last edited by Loh; 12-25-2011 at 11:07 AM.

  11. #419
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    By the way, I also believe that for ZZ to become a better player (to be a world-class, top player), he could have a spell in training in different countries, like in Indonesia, China, Korea, etc, etc,...

    Badminton clubs are usually form because they love Badminton (the main reason); where governmental and political issues are usually not important.

    I am sure many clubs would welcome ZZ to train with them.

    ZZ, as an independent player, can select where to train, because he is not stuck with BAM.
    .
    I like to share your enthusiasm but the reality may disappoint you.

  12. #420
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    I like to share your enthusiasm but the reality may disappoint you.
    .
    The reality can be changed.

    Let's have BWF, nations and clubs to start thinking to promote Badminton without any political issues.

    You didn't know that I was screaming like hell when BWF (then IBF) did not wish to have China to be included to participate in our World Badminton.

    Now, I am screaming like hell when National Associations do not wish to have independent players to be included to participate in their National Teams.
    .

  13. #421
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    I would say that LCW making it is despite the politics and whatever sabotaging within BAM. If not due to that, Msia would have able to produce more top players. BAM used to keep saying - not enough budget. So,aft some time,the players quit BAM to go independent. But unlike in INA,BAM tried to show power like what happened to Gan/TBS. Government, in the form of NSC and Sports Ministry,will give support to whichever player, irregardless under BAM or not. NSC said more private support its better, government dont have to support so much $$$.

    As comparision,the Msian Athletics assciation is in chaos due to politics.Look at FAM. Having a success story from private clubs is good for the future of Msian badminton. If not,BAM will be too arrogant,which is bad for badminton. hopefully Zul will continue to progress and make BAM come back down to earth. They keep saying not enough slots, limited budget, ok, let the private clubs take them and dont be jealous of the clubs.

  14. #422
    Regular Member Aikachan's Avatar
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    ZZ's head to head stats against senior players especially BAM players still not in his favours yet.

  15. #423
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    No doubt ZZ is a potential player however, in order for him to be succeeded, let us consider on these key factors:-

    1. Get him a physical trainer as from my observance, he is quite 'plump' hence, to compete in physical duo in matches involving senior players, he will sure be 'pancit' one 1.
    2. BAM should allow him to be be included in their regime for training sessions. They already have potential players ie. Mohd Arif Abdul Latif etc... Why don't let him be competing with them for both parties interest. Unless BAM want to put aside national concern compared to commercial concern lah....
    3. KLRC must sent him to many tourneys as possible for his exposure.

  16. #424
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aikachan View Post
    ZZ's head to head stats against senior players especially BAM players still not in his favours yet.
    .
    Agree...... Let us take another look at the end of 2012. By then, I am sure that ZZ will rank higher than many of his seniors.

    Hope that I can remember to refer to this post at the end of 2012.

    .

  17. #425
    Regular Member Aikachan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Agree...... Let us take another look at the end of 2012. By then, I am sure that ZZ will rank higher than many of his seniors.

    Hope that I can remember to refer to this post at the end of 2012.

    .
    Deal Go ZZ!

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