different clubs different attitudes

**urameatball** · 01-10-2011, 01:27 PM

Do what I once did, before attacking from the back, I'd scream at my partner "MOVE UP".

They usually don't move up and the opponent gets an easy winner, and then you start cussing out your partner until he/she is too scared to ever play with you again.

**MSeeley** · 01-10-2011, 03:15 PM

I wonder bbirdman, if your partner plays 2 smashes, then a slow drop (as the original poster described) should you remain at the net where you should have been - as you rightly pointed out - BEFORE your partner hits the drop, even when your opponent is coming in to play the net kill? In my opinion, thats a crap drop, and you can be excused for retreating and blaming your partner. I think you agree, no?

**alexh** · 01-10-2011, 03:31 PM

I guess bbirdman must be playing fast drop shots, maybe with slice, but not slow drop shots. We're not trying to argue that all drop shots in doubles are bad, are we?

**MSeeley** · 01-10-2011, 04:02 PM

alexh: certainly not

And you are right, he must be describing a good non-slow dropshot. But read the post by nprince on post #40, which sparked this part of the discussion, and you will see that the he has problems with his partner playing drops, followed by his opponent playing net kills! They must be pretty slow drop shots! bbirdman said in response however, that nprince should remain at the net because "drops are attacking shots". However, in this situation, where the drop is that slow, I disagree!

**Andy05** · 01-10-2011, 06:43 PM

Yeah in the Drop-Kill situation I would:
1. Retreat from the net and adopt a defensive position
2. If my partner took issue with me retreating on what should be an attacking shot, I would just tell them that you do not feel safe in that position as the drop shots are too high and leave you vulnerable. Don't be critical or people just become defensive and feel the need to start and argument and they don't listen, hopefully they will take the hint if they play the same shot again and you retreat again.

**weeyeh** · 01-10-2011, 07:44 PM

The best argument is a demo. Suggest that nprince do a slow drop to show the partner... just once.

**Andy05** · 01-10-2011, 07:45 PM

A demo with an opponent waiting to kill?

**- иεvvεи٭т -ツ** · 01-10-2011, 08:51 PM

bbirdman is right IMO... basic doubles strategy is if the shot is attacking from the back (smash or drop) the partner covers the net for the weak return or to continue the attack. If the shuttle is lifted or cleared in defense you split.
In terms of drop shots the slower drop; when performed correctly, is suppose to be tighter to the net and basically act like a really tight net shot. The faster one is sharper but lands deeper in court unless you cross court it and cut a lot...(but not recommended for dbles)
Regardless if the shot is loose or not I think the person at the net should still stay there with their racket up; that way the net is still covered and if a tap/smash is done then the person who did the drop will cover it... since it was their mistake to begin with. A lot of people get pressured or panic when they lift half court or perform a loose shot, I think in the situation play as you normally would because you could end up winning the point.

**Fidget** · 01-10-2011, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by weeyeh

The best argument is a demo. Suggest that nprince do a slow drop to show the partner... just once.

Originally Posted by Andy05

A demo with an opponent waiting to kill?

Purposely set up your partner to be nailed? You cruel guys could be tried as accessories to murder. (or at least accessories to bruising

)

**Yoppy** · 01-11-2011, 01:00 AM

Im missed a few pages and this thread has became a thread about tactic and skill

**nprince** · 01-11-2011, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by - иεvvεи٭т -ツ

bbirdman is right IMO... basic doubles strategy is if the shot is attacking from the back (smash or drop) the partner covers the net for the weak return or to continue the attack. If the shuttle is lifted or cleared in defense you split.
In terms of drop shots the slower drop; when performed correctly, is suppose to be tighter to the net and basically act like a really tight net shot. The faster one is sharper but lands deeper in court unless you cross court it and cut a lot...(but not recommended for dbles)
Regardless if the shot is loose or not I think the person at the net should still stay there with their racket up; that way the net is still covered and if a tap/smash is done then the person who did the drop will cover it... since it was their mistake to begin with. A lot of people get pressured or panic when they lift half court or perform a loose shot, I think in the situation play as you normally would because you could end up winning the point.

Mseeley, more often than not you speaks my mind. Thank you.

I cannot agree with Bridman or иεvvεи٭т -when you say, drop shots are your go to shots-however good it may be & a drop shot close to the net. A drop shot which is really close to the net can work against you. The opponents have many options. A tight spinning net return is deadly. Net Kills & Drives are other option. And every good opponents would be waiting to pounce on your drops when they know that smash is not your go to shot. I will go with what "gollum" suggested, "your drop shots are only as good as your smash"

Consider the situation where you forced the opponents to lift. You will expect your partner to smash and your position would be around a meter behind "T" to cover the replies tot he smash. Instead, if your partner plays a drop (If drops are his "Go to" shots, good opponents will anticipate them and stand further close to the net, always ready to move forward), you will be the one who is deceived-not your opponents. They will see the shot early and move accordingly. But you need to wait till the bird passes you and you will be in a vulnerable position. I do not risk moving forward unless I am sure that I do not get a smash\drive on my eyes. By then, a simple net return also would look threatening. And they have all the other shots which I discussed earlier + cross court net if my partner plays to the corner.

Sorry for deviating from the main topic-Soon we will come back!!!

NP

**extremenanopowe** · 01-11-2011, 04:58 AM

its called attitude. Majority are bad ones. Only a good one like me welcomes people... keke...

**Gollum** · 01-11-2011, 05:57 AM

Just a thought about slow drops in singles vs. doubles:

A slow drop in singles is probably more risky than in doubles, simply because you don't have a partner covering the net. You will probably not reach the net in time to challenge your opponent's tight net shot. By the time you get there, your only options may be a late net shot (offering a kill) or a short lift (offering a good smash).

In doubles, your partner is well-positioned to challenge any net play. This means you can use slower drops quite effectively. Having said that, you can still cause problems by playing your drops too slow, so that the opponents can reach them at or close to net height. Judgement is required.

Remember that "fast drop" and "slow drop" are very general categories. You can hit drop shots at more than just two "standard" speeds. My perception is that typical doubles drop shots are a little slower than typical singles drop shots.

Of course, fast drops are also effective in doubles.

**nprince** · 01-11-2011, 07:09 AM

Gollum, for the first time with you, I think otherwise,

In singles, you canot come forward to the net in anticipation of a slow drop because, then a puch clear will put you in diffuclty.

But in doubles, I will be willing to risk moving front in anticipation against a habitual droper trusting my partner to cover for me. If I make it, I get an oprtunity for an easy kill. A punch clear or any other shot will be punished by my partner.

Of course, one need to be considering a smash return as well-but that evens out in singles & doubles. Again, I think I have a better chance in doubles because, I need to worry about defending\escaping from smash to a small region. Rest is for my partner to take care off.

Does that make sense?
NP

**MSeeley** · 01-11-2011, 07:43 AM

nprince, I think you may have misinterpreted what Gollum has said. I believe Gollum is not saying that in singles your opponent would have to move forwards in order for you to be in trouble for performing a slow drop shot, but that in singles, BECAUSE it is slower, and should land closer to the net, your opponent will have more time to get to the shuttle (he will have to move further, BUT he has the time to do so). So you see, your assumption about "anticipating net shots" makes you vulnerable to the punch clear, is not, in my opinion, correct - it may be for some people, but shouldn't be the case for those with a high standard of movement.

Once he gets there, he is so close to the net, he can perform any number of evil net shots, including a devastating tight spinning net shot. In singles, this is really bad as Gollum describes. In this respect, a slower drop shot in doubles is less risky, because you have one player devoted to covering the net, and so your opponents "tight net shot" may not be so devastating, indeed you might get there in time to kill the reply if it is played to the net.

On the other hand, a fast drop shot in singles, has a good advantage over a slower drop shot in singles. On one hand your opponent doesn't have to move as far, but at the same time they have less time to get there - so in this respect, its the same as a slow drop shot - your opponent WILL get to it. However, a faster drop shot should land further away from the net. When your opponent reaches this shot, they will have GREAT difficulty playing a decisive tight net shot, because they will take the shuttle from further away from the net. Thus, in this respect, you have limited what your opponent can do to "hurt" you in the rally. Hence, the faster drop may be considered a better choice in singles, than a slow drop.

I feel it is on the above point in bold that you have slightly misunderstood Gollum - I agree though that in doubles, a slow drop is STILL risky, because your doubles opponent MAY anticipate the shot and play a kill.

I feel reading Gollums guide on different types of pressure - there is shot making pressure, and there is movement pressure - may help you understand where Gollum is coming from.

To my mind, in singles, the movement pressure between a fast and slow drop is about the same (different, but still relatively equal). However, the shot making pressure for a fast drop is, in my opinion, MUCH MUCH higher than for a slow drop.
In doubles however, movement pressure doesn't really make sense - there are two of you - because if you rotate well, you will cover the court well! However, shot making pressure - coming up with good shots under pressure - is much much more important. A slow drop creates more shot making pressure in doubles than in singles, because your opponent has to worry about the well stationed front court attacker! A fast drop still has many many good benefits too.

Thats the best explanation I can give, on why I think Gollum is correct, but you are also correct! I feel its a combination of shot making pressure and movement pressure.

Hope that you can follow that, I don't have time to reword it right now! I can come back and do so if you don't understand what I mean.

Matt

**Gollum** · 01-11-2011, 08:35 AM

As Matt explained, the main issue with slow drops is not anticipation, but time and trajectory.

Anticipation can always be a problem, regardless of which shot you are playing. If your opponent anticipates your shot, then he will be better prepared for it -- in extreme cases, he will move to intercept the shot before you even hit it! This is especially problematic if you played a shot to the net.

Even without anticipation by your opponent, however, a slow drop can be risky -- particularly in singles. Slow drops take longer to reach the net, and arrive closer to the net tape, setting your opponent up for a tight spinning net shot. Performing this same shot off a fast drop is impossible (although you can use some undercutting). See my singles tactics page on drop shots.

There are several connected elements in these tactical evaluations:

The position of your opponent: without anticipating, where will he be hitting the shuttle from?
Your recovery position: when your opponent reaches the shuttle, what position will you have reached?
In doubles, the position of your partner.
Your shot's trajectory: e.g. a slow drop shot has a more loopy trajectory that leaves it falling closer to the net, and this affects the trajectories of your opponent's possible shots.