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  1. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy05 View Post
    The issue I have is that you cannot say just because somebody is under 10 they are not good enough to play against somebody who is 40+. It should be based on skill not ages.
    I agree skill should be the factor not age, if everyone is of the same ability then it makes it more interesting for them I would have thought. Age should only be a considered factor, but skill should be the main factor for clubs.

  2. #87
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    I think that segregating players by experience/skill is a good idea to increase everyone's enjoyment. If the beginners always end up facing the good players and keep losing 21-(low number) then it might put them off.

    I also believe that when/if you are trying to improve your skill level it is good to get into a game with players better than yourself, usually the areas for improvement become that much clearer.

    Have 2 clubs I regularly play with. One likes mixing around such that doubles pairs are often one beginner and a more skilled player per pair, although the serious players will try and clique for a game or two, nothing wrong with that. The other prefers to just put players of similar levels together. Am personally happy with any arrangement that gives me enough games

  3. #88
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    Thumbs down It is an attitude problem

    Quote Originally Posted by LD rules! View Post
    I agree skill should be the factor not age, if everyone is of the same ability then it makes it more interesting for them I would have thought. Age should only be a considered factor, but skill should be the main factor for clubs.
    .
    But as kwun said "In some clubs, players tend to show some attitude. they would not play hard with you. just screwing around no matter if you are good or bad. as if paying more effort into the games is uncool or something".

    It is an attitude problem. Sad that it happens almost everywhere, from Australia to Zimbabwe.

    .

  4. #89
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    Default Solution: Turn off your lights

    Story: Last nite i was at my regular club and at the hall (a 3 courts hall) we got 9 big lights (3 in the middle and 3 on each side). When i came 3 lights on the middle are off and my mate (the court operator) was trying to fix the switch. And after about half hour trying suddently the switch exploded / short circuited, hence all 9 lights were gone LOL. At that stage, we were left with 4 small door lights. It was about 7pm at nite but the sun is still bright (you know its summer now down here), so people were kept on playing (using the sun light) until the sun down at about 8. The funny thing is that all of us were just trying to get on court asap and did not care who we played with or againts LOL.

    I kept on playing until about half past 8 (totally dark beside those 4 small door lights), it was like driving in the middle of the nite without head light LOL. It's so bloody hard to see the bird, Im pretty sure that we increased by 1 level next week we back on court LOL, you know Kung Fu kid trained that way (blind folded) too.

  5. #90
    Regular Member urameatball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Not to disagree with your opinion. However, when things like this happen, newer players to Badminton will not understand what 'good' Badminton is all about.

    .
    those who are interested will find out their own way. There's not need to hold their hand and lead them to whatever path you think is right for them.
    Age separation is great amongst strangers... Kids mesh with kids easily, teens mesh with teens easily, adults mesh with adults easily. When you mix them up, people ignore each other, form cliques, or someone ends up being a baby sitter. If I'm helping out a beginner, I feel MUCH more comfortable helping out someone my age rather than a senior citizen (or small child) who is equally eager to learn.

  6. #91
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    A lot of interesting points raised here. To andy, I know MOST clubs I have been to don't exactly "welcome" juniors, because they feel they are not good enough. However, if they are talented, then they are more likely to be welcome. However, i also know clubs that didn't want too many "young people" and I am talking teenagers, as me and my friend were at the time. I would have gone straight to their first team... so skill really wasn't an issue there, they just didn't want me because I was "young" - nearly 20. I still can't get my head around. They will never convince me to join them now (i have taken pride in trashing them a few times in local competitions!).

    Age separation works, as urameatball says, from a social point of view. The age gap can be VERY awkward! However, I feel a skills segregation CAN also work quite well.

    It is my experience that smaller countries (I will use Holland as my example, because I have a friend who has a good experience of it) have excellent club systems, where basically everyone in the area belongs to one "club" that have lots of club nights and sessions. What is so good about this, is that moving from skill level to skill level is so easy, WITHIN one club, where there are common organisers/coaches. What I would love to see "implemented" is clubs having links between them, so that when a player surpasses the standard of their current club, or is not quite up to the standard of the club they have tried, they can seamlessly move to a different club in a similar area that caters for the next skill level.

    This way, everyone progresses, some more than others, its easy to organise games AND training of the correct "level", as well as know that there are no "hard feelings" about leaving a club or some such nonsense - club loyalty can be damaging for players in terms of their development - your ultimate goal as a player is to improve your badminton, and that should be done by joining the right club for you.

    I personally feel, that age only works when you have a large number of players, such that different skill groups can be "established" within the age boundaries - meaning some players should play above their current age boundary to be in the correct skills group.

    I found it astonishing a few months ago to learn that county juniors are sometimes not allowed to play against regular county players. I found this incredible! How are they, young, skilled, talented, supposed to learn to play tactically like adults, if they don't play with the more experienced players every once in a while. Craziness... They are segregated based on age, regardless of skill. Surely there HAVE to be some exceptions for those who are good enough? Otherwise they won't mature, they will continue in their naive, but ultimately very talented, badminton.

    Matt

  7. #92
    Regular Member Andy05's Avatar
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    Hiya MSeeley, though I would love you club system to work, moving up the club standards and onto new clubs, it would effectively destroy the league system we have now. It would end up being a really good team vs the club below, which can't compete. Or the good club team 1 vs good club team 2. We do need a varied club system to allow competition.
    I think the best solution to skill segredation would need to be based on a tier system, regardless of age. Tier 1, 2, 3... etc. Tier 1 players play with Tier 1 and 2 players. Tier 2 players play with 1, 2 and 3. Tier 3 with 2, 3 and 4. Etc... This way if the players below were consistently beating the ones above you can move them up. It also gives the worse players a chance to test themselves.

    I think just trying to put some unbiased people in charge of the clubs would alter a lot of the systems in the clubs, everyone seems to abuse the power.

  8. #93
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    Andy - you are of course correct. In holland, the example I gave, I am told there are many more opportunities to play tournaments, and its generally against everyone you know And by that, I mean once a fortnight (this is my friends experience from the system about 20 years ago... may have changed since then).

    I believe the system I described COULD potentially work with the idea of a league if there were several clubs at each "standard", and so you wouldn't have one great club versus one weaker club, but many equal-ish clubs against each other. The main thing I wanted to highlight with my idea, is that there should be clear stepping stones from certain clubs, to certain groups of other clubs. However, i agree that this would need some thinking, and that you may lose some of the benefits of the current league system. To my mind though, social play would take on a completely different feel, instead of having strong team 1 players in a club and weaker team 2 players etc, every member of the club would be of an equal standard (sort of) and so everyone benefits from practising against everyone else, more or less.

    I think the tier system you describe sounds excellent to me! However, finding unbiased people is difficult. There is difficulty in choosing someone unbiased, because most people who play badminton, and understand the different skill requirements, ARE biased in some way... However, i have seen clubs where ONE member organises each game. Some are not great, but I have known some that have been fantastic, with real considerations on making balanced games and mixing different skill levels about a bit, but not too much!

    Cheers

    Matt

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    Hey folks, several interesting points raised in this thread. I thought I would give my 2 cents on the issue from a beginner perspective (I myself am a beginner, slowly making that transition to be an intermediate, and learning from every opportunity I get).

    First of all, I am not someone who just takes things for granted and expects to get a chance to play with 'A' players the very first time I'm in court with out doing my homework. But, from a learning standpoint, I'm sure you all would agree, no matter how many times one watches the videos on BadmintonBible, reads numerous articles, keeps playing shadow badminton, practices wall drills - none of this equates to what you learn from actually playing a game with a good opponent.

    I am not here to debate whether an advanced player should waste his precious time playing with a newbie like me. But, I am pretty sure all of us are actively being beginners in some aspect of our lives at any given time (career, personal life, a new sport etc.) and would sure as hell would appreciate some advice and insight from someone who's been through that path.

    I sure do understand the frustration of an A player playing with a noob (not to sound cocky, I could be new to badminton, but I am considered an expert in few other aspects and had a chance to recruit/train a handful of people). I understand that they've got nothing to gain from a noob and could possibly ruin their form which took them several years to attain. But, please think what if all the advanced players around you thought the same way, when you were in a newbie's shoes.

    So, finally I would like to say that I am not going to let these factors affect my appreciation for the sport and would keep on focusing on improving my game (the pleasure of playing badminton is too precious to loose to petty things like these - and hey, I always have my wall to play with ).

    But, if you are an 'A' player, I humbly request you to not volunteer to play with a beginner and ignore him/her like they are insignificant by looking at other courts/not putting proper effort. That just is bad sportsmanship - no matter what your skill level is.

  10. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    In recent years, many new clubs opened up in the Bay Area. with the better availability, there are also many many more players.

    i have started to noticed that players in different clubs have developed into different types. in some clubs, the players are very cliquey, meaning that they only like to play with their own clique of players and tend to reject people outside their own group.

    in some clubs, players tend to show some attitude. they would not play hard with you. just screwing around no matter if you are good or bad. as if paying more effort into the games is uncool or something.

    but in some other clubs, players are very hard working, they will play their best games with you regardless of skill level and everyone try hard.

    in some clubs, players are welcoming regardless of who comes to challenge them.

    do you find that in your club too?
    Hi Kwun,

    I'm also from the Bay Area, and would be interested to hear your thoughts from above toward specific clubs.

    thanks
    Hugh

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    As for me, I don't mind to play with lower skilled player as long they have a basic sense of tactic. The problem with some none serious players, they would go after every stroke in double and take away my stroke which is very annoying which caused many racket clashing. It's normal in double that rackets clash occasionally but if it's happening all the time and destroy my racket which is where I have a problem with. Therefore, I rather don't go for the shuttle and loose the rally/game then destroying my rackets when I play with a beginner or someone without any sense of tactics.

  12. #97
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    i don't mind playing with beginners. i used to be one. (didn't we all?)
    but i do mind playing 3 games consecutive!
    i'd prefer to start my club nights playing with beginners as that would be my warm up game(s).
    also to warm up the 'fun' factor.

  13. #98
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    in my club, i'm practically the only junior/teen there, but everyone there is willing to play. i guess people in boston are nicer than the bay area

  14. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza Fish View Post
    in my club, i'm practically the only junior/teen there, but everyone there is willing to play. i guess people in boston are nicer than the bay area
    This is definitely not the case in general in the Bay Area. :-)

    For example Bingtang in SSF is great where you can play with anyone in any of the 26 courts! They have all level of players and they all are willing to play with you even the coaches. For sure, this has probably the most willing and open club players. Best time is Friday evening or Tuesday.

    UBC in Fremont is also pretty good. I am also able to play with most players there but definitely there is more of grouping here. Monday and Wednesday nights are good.

    cheers
    Hugh

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    I think there's something to be learnt no matter how great you are, all it requires is a mindset change.

    If I'm playing with D players, I try to hit the tape for a netshot or a backhand cross court drop. I disregard most other shots I can make unless I keep the bird in play.

    If I'm playing with C players, I try to do a round the head cross court drop or a past body back hand drive/clear/net shot.

    If I'm playing with B players, I do round the head smashes or slice smashes

    If I'm playing with Pros, I practise diving and/or picking up the shuttle with a backhand scoop.

    There's always a chance to be schooled, no matter how terrible the person you're playing with is, if they can't school you, limit and school yourself.

    TL;DR - If your opponents are not challenging, challenge yourself.

    ps - disregard the ranking system, I'm sure some D players can/will kick my a-s-s.
    Last edited by fnaibaf; 07-03-2012 at 12:50 AM.

  16. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSeeley View Post
    A lot of interesting points raised here. To andy, I know MOST clubs I have been to don't exactly "welcome" juniors, because they feel they are not good enough. However, if they are talented, then they are more likely to be welcome. However, i also know clubs that didn't want too many "young people" and I am talking teenagers, as me and my friend were at the time. I would have gone straight to their first team... so skill really wasn't an issue there, they just didn't want me because I was "young" - nearly 20. I still can't get my head around. They will never convince me to join them now (i have taken pride in trashing them a few times in local competitions!).
    Matt
    At our club we don't currently allow Juniors to join our membership due to the rules/issues with Child protection. We'd have to get registered and ensure a supervising adult that's passed an enhanced CRB check was at hand at all times at a minimum. A properly run club does need to be following legal requirements

    BoE have guidelines for this:
    http://www.badmintonengland.co.uk/te...cting+Children

    We usually allow juniors to play as a guest if they're accompanied with their parents as I don't think that breaks any rules.

    By the sounds of it though your over 18 and considered an adult.
    Clubs can be run at different levels.
    Some have organically grown from a bunch of friends renting a court & expanding & it's often the organisers personal views/opinions which may dictate membership.

    Others are run in a more organised manner but the aims of the club are quite specific and again the organisers opinions can cloud the point. (i.e. if your good enough can be quite subjective)

    At our club any prospective member that requests to join has to be put forward to our commitee and we always give a reason for refusal. If we do we also try & help them find a suitable alternaltive as well.

    As for my own personal thought. I have no problem playing with a beginner. I'll normally just keep the rally going & try to give them as more "shot" time rather than "picking shuttle off the floor" time.
    Depending on the context of the people/club I can make it a fun knock around or if they're receptive give pointers.

    I'd consider looking bored as being a bit rude but mucking around doesn't mean disrespect to the players. I guess it depends on the attitude of the beginner.

  17. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindfields View Post
    At our club we don't currently allow Juniors to join our membership due to the rules/issues with Child protection. We'd have to get registered and ensure a supervising adult that's passed an enhanced CRB check was at hand at all times at a minimum. A properly run club does need to be following legal requirements

    BoE have guidelines for this:
    http://www.badmintonengland.co.uk/te...cting+Children

    We usually allow juniors to play as a guest if they're accompanied with their parents as I don't think that breaks any rules.

    By the sounds of it though your over 18 and considered an adult.
    Clubs can be run at different levels.
    Some have organically grown from a bunch of friends renting a court & expanding & it's often the organisers personal views/opinions which may dictate membership.

    Others are run in a more organised manner but the aims of the club are quite specific and again the organisers opinions can cloud the point. (i.e. if your good enough can be quite subjective)

    At our club any prospective member that requests to join has to be put forward to our commitee and we always give a reason for refusal. If we do we also try & help them find a suitable alternaltive as well.

    As for my own personal thought. I have no problem playing with a beginner. I'll normally just keep the rally going & try to give them as more "shot" time rather than "picking shuttle off the floor" time.
    Depending on the context of the people/club I can make it a fun knock around or if they're receptive give pointers.

    I'd consider looking bored as being a bit rude but mucking around doesn't mean disrespect to the players. I guess it depends on the attitude of the beginner.
    Thanks for your reply. I am most certainly not considered a junior, and was not considered a junior when I looked to join that particular club. However, I was considered "young". The club in question has a team in the highest division in the league they played, and I would easily have made that team, so my standard wasn't an issue. It was just plain being "cold" because they didn't like my (or my friends) age. Which is stupid.

    I understand the rules and whatnot about allowing junior players into the club. This is of course an important consideration for any club, but too many clubs are just stubborn. Badminton is not encouraged in this country the way it should be.

    It sounds like you have a good club culture where you are. Suggesting other clubs and whatnot are always very considerate things to do for players, and the whole "committee decision" process is, i think, fairly common to most clubs. Not many clubs have enough members or court time to run at different levels, but then again many clubs form partnerships so that players start in one and feed through to others as they improve.

    I think club attitude is a strange thing. People are not, in general, as welcoming as they could be. I think this is in large part because they don't like having to reselect teams and such/don't like change. There are of course exceptions where everyone is made to feel welcome, and those clubs are doing the right thing!

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