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  1. #1
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Default different clubs different attitudes

    In recent years, many new clubs opened up in the Bay Area. with the better availability, there are also many many more players.

    i have started to noticed that players in different clubs have developed into different types. in some clubs, the players are very cliquey, meaning that they only like to play with their own clique of players and tend to reject people outside their own group.

    in some clubs, players tend to show some attitude. they would not play hard with you. just screwing around no matter if you are good or bad. as if paying more effort into the games is uncool or something.

    but in some other clubs, players are very hard working, they will play their best games with you regardless of skill level and everyone try hard.

    in some clubs, players are welcoming regardless of who comes to challenge them.

    do you find that in your club too?

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    Regular Member ryim_'s Avatar
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    all kinds of people exist in this world kwun
    I notice these things here in HK too!

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    Yup,same situation in Malaysia here,

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    You are absolutely right in my opinion In some clubs, the "better" players want only to play amongst themselves. Some clubs don't even like new members to join unless they are "good enough" - we all have to start from somewhere, and refusing entry to new players is, in many cases, not acceptable (I note that there MAY be some circumstances in which an absolute beginner may not fit in to a very high standard club, but I have not experienced such a "high standard club" before, but maybe they exist...). In some clubs, everyone is laid back and not really interested in "competing" and challenging each other, even when they keep losing - these clubs tend to have a poor track record in competitive league matches, and tend to get upset easily. There are many other types of club, including, as you say, some clubs that have got the perfect attitude: they welcome newcomers, they offer advice, they let you play amongst ALL the members of the club, and at the same time, everyone brings an on court focus that is to be highly respected. This last club is a club where there is an excellent degree of respect for all players, and everyone is there to improve and enjoy their badminton!

    It should be noted, that all types of people exist in the world, some are naturally competitive, some very friendly, some who don't want to mix with new people, probably because they are, on some level, nervous about change in some way. What I liked about what kwun has pointed out, is that it is interested how some entire clubs have these characteristics. In a club, you will always get a mix of members, but when I walk into a club, especially being quite young in comparison to most seasoned badminton players, the first thing I always notice is a sense of welcoming to new players of all standards, OR... a sense that they expect me to be rubbish and that I don't come again. I have been to a lot of clubs as a member and a visitor, and it really is very noticeable!

    The worst type of club, in my opinion, is the one that isn't willing to change: the try to avoid doing things any other way than the way things have "always been done".

    Good topic

    Matt

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    I remember having a debate almost 2 yrs ago with "pemuda" (a banned BC member LOL) about this similar topic of discriminisation in badminton. I was againts it and he does not mind it hahaha..... that said i can see the point and Im not trying to defend those bad clubs, but here's some reason why they may sort of unwelcoming:

    1. Its more fun to play with your own mates; you can joke around and tell stories afterwards.
    2. Playing compatibility / style: eg. if you are an fast attacking player and most likely you want to play with a partner who at least knows the attacking sense. My personal experience in my club, Malaysian players tend to play with more patience and slower pace.
    3. Playing level; i guess this is the most common reason. From the prespective of the higher level players, its not so much fun to play with a relatively beginer player especially if they are new to the club. In sort, they have almost nothing to gain in that situation.
    4. Court capacity; some clubs are more crowded than others and a newcomer means less hit for the same bug. And longer queing time too
    5. I found also some club operator/owner dont like to have too many a very advance player in their club simply because they used up the most shuttles LOL

    Im sure there are many more reasons about it, some will be funny and some maybe unacceptable.

    In my club, its more of mix of those things. Preferably I like to play with my own mates and there are a few groups in the clubs too. So we know who likes to play with who, and we dont mind about it. But at the same time there are also some less regular members who comes every now and then, some we like some we dont LOL. One guy I really hate, he comes around very rarely (actually he came only twice as far as i know) who thinks he can beat everyone in the court LOL. At first he played againts not so strong opponent and he was showing lazy attitude as if saying you guys are not good enough. Then he's up againts some of our stronger members and the next thing i know he was screaming/shouting while doing jump smash LOL. At the end he ended up losing 5 out of 6 games, and since then he never came back LOL
    Last edited by Yoppy; 01-03-2011 at 09:02 PM.

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    It boils down to why the folks are at the game.

    For social clubs, they may not care about the level of play. I run a group like that and it's for players of all levels. We are good even if you persistently miss the shuttle, or if you are playing at a national level. The requirement is that you must be sociable and understand that there are different level of plays here. While the group is not open to public, we invite friends of friends of friends and have gone through about 8-9 generations of friends by now. Social groups can be open, semi-open (like what we have) or closed (e.g. family members).

    Then, there is this "for badminton" of groups. These groups tend to be more focussed on level of play requiring that members be at the said level. These groups tend to sort themselves out with controls in place to ensure that the objective of the players (to play serious badminton) are met. I play at one such group. While we are open to any player, they must meet a certain level of play. Players tend to sort themselves out into levels to maximise their enjoyment. There are social aspects off court (everyone are friends after a while) but on court, its usually serious business.

    Most clubs are a mix of the two with varying emphasis on the two aspects.

    Oddly, I also have been to a game where everyone plays okay badminton but nobody talks... Feels so weird.

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    I think Yoppy raised some excellent points. But I have some comments about each type of group:
    1. Play as a group of mates - How can anybody new get into the game if groups of "mates" never let them into a group? This is a problem I have in the UK with county players, who seem unwilling to play me
    2. Tactical differences - You should always be looking to improve your game tactically, and so should your partner. Playing a game with a very good player who plays a different style is a chance to learn new tactics, and also teach some of your tactics to your partner - as long as you remember that neither you nor he is necessarily "right". Everyone has different views - learn some new ones
    3. Playing level - This is an interesting point. On the one hand, the "higher" level players should feel obliged to play with the lower level players EVERY SO OFTEN. If its ALL the time, then this is unfair for the higher level players. But if they never play together, this is unfair for the lower level players who WANT to challenge themselves against better opponents. In my experience, this is best done (in doubles) in pairs, i.e. two better and two weaker players, one of each on each side of the court. If it becomes three of one type, then it is not fair on the fourth player (who is either playing with three very strong or weak opponents) and this is a bad situation to be in.
    4. Courts available - an excellent point, but on the other hand, how will the club ever grow? Can't they get more courts if more members join? That makes sense to me? Its when you turn people away because of not enough courts, and then some "regulars" leave, and then more people leave (through injury or otherwise) your club now has a problem - no new members because the club is known for turning people away.
    5. Shuttle usage - seriously? Everywhere I have been its people who are less experienced, who are more prone to miss hitting shuttles, that cause the most shuttle damage, not the well struck (but potentially more powerful) shots of a more advanced player - consider better shuttles? They don't sound right to me :s

    I am only trying to raise the "opposite" points above for everyone to consider. There is always another side to the story! However, I accept that court space is an excellent reason for clubs not to welcome you, but I am not convinced about the others. The "different levels of player" problem is something that could be fixed so easily, but at some clubs is NOT dealt with well at all when the more advanced players want to play SOME games amongst themselves to improve/challenge each other, which leads to negativity from some other players, which leads to the better players not getting enough "good" games, and not wanting to come to the club anymore. Its a real pickle if its not dealt with properly.

    Thanks for reading my essay

    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    3. Playing level; i guess this is the most common reason. From the prespective of the higher level players, its not so much fun to play with a relatively beginer player especially if they are new to the club. In sort, they have almost nothing to gain in that situation.
    I've seen higher level players getting on court with beginners, playing competitively, and totally crushing the beginners. Indeed this isn't much fun for either party. But if the higher level player is willing to try teaching beginners, they might find that it's enjoyable and rewarding. And it's possible to play a social game in a "teaching" spirit, giving the beginner shots they can handle. It's a good exercise, to think about where you're placing the shuttle, instead of playing by instinct and winning all the points quickly!

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    I dont play my badminton at a club. I go to no strings badminton sessions run by badminton england. infact where I live its possible to play 6 days a week with minimal cost, I think its a great scheme. Ability varies. If playing lower level players I use it to practice. Ultimately playing better players is more fun though so eventually would like to join a club with more better players.

  10. #10
    Regular Member urameatball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexh View Post
    I've seen higher level players getting on court with beginners, playing competitively, and totally crushing the beginners. Indeed this isn't much fun for either party. But if the higher level player is willing to try teaching beginners, they might find that it's enjoyable and rewarding. And it's possible to play a social game in a "teaching" spirit, giving the beginner shots they can handle. It's a good exercise, to think about where you're placing the shuttle, instead of playing by instinct and winning all the points quickly!
    What you're saying does happen... it's called private coaching and it costs $50/hr here.

    Advanced players who play with beginner players have a lot to lose:
    * First off, they can't practice their advanced shots because a good smash, drive, drop, slice or clear will immediately win the point. So they're essentially practicing how to play a bad shot in order to keep the rally going. If they spend 1/2hr playing with beginners in a 3hr session, they've essentially devoted 17% of their time downgrading their skills... which is EXTREMELY BAD for any advanced/competitive player.
    * Secondly, beginner players hack birds!!! My friends played doubles with a beginner player last week and we went through 13 birds in 30minutes (our average is 3 birds in 30minutes)
    * Third, mixing beginners with advanced will increase the risk of racquet clashes. It's a very easy (and painful) way for the advanced player to lose his/her favourite $200 racquet. Players at similar levels survive racquet clashes well because their timing and swing speeds are similar. When advanced and beginner racquets meet, racquets EXPLODE!
    * Fourth and most importantly, advanced players have the most fun playing advanced level games. If you had a choice between having more fun or less fun, what would YOU choose?


    Going back on topic, different clubs have different standards... it's a good thing because you can choose one that suits YOU best.

  11. #11
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    Matt, in pricipal i must agree with your points, and the only reason of my 1st post was to see the other side of the arguement. IMO only when we understood the both, then we can make good decisions to achieve the goals that you pointed out.

    OK please let me go through a bit more:

    Quote Originally Posted by MSeeley View Post
    1. Play as a group of mates - How can anybody new get into the game if groups of "mates" never let them into a group? This is a problem I have in the UK with county players, who seem unwilling to play me
    This is a problem that we always face everywhere (at work, school, etc) , whether we like it or not, human like to make social group or gang if you like. I guess it takes time and synergy for anyone to bond into group, and in the worse case we can always form our own group/friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSeeley View Post
    2. Tactical differences - You should always be looking to improve your game tactically, and so should your partner. Playing a game with a very good player who plays a different style is a chance to learn new tactics, and also teach some of your tactics to your partner - as long as you remember that neither you nor he is necessarily "right". Everyone has different views - learn some new ones
    You are probably right about the learning point of view, but again not everyone is wanting to learn anymore. Often they just want to go there and have fun or play the game the way they know.

    Another reason perhaps, they simply have different direction in terms of learning objective, eg. one wants to learn to play fast (because he/she plays slow very well already) and other want to learn to play slow (because he/she plays fast very well already). So at the end we have this clash of objective which makes players seem unwilling to play with certain players.

    And if we leave out the learning context, players always want to win right?? I personally find that having a partner who doesn't have a similar mentality/style (or at least knows your basic tactic) can turn out to be a disaster. Im not saying they have to have the same mentality, but the ability of complementing each other to me is very important. One can be a good partner for one and be a bad one for another.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSeeley View Post
    3. Playing level - This is an interesting point. On the one hand, the "higher" level players should feel obliged to play with the lower level players EVERY SO OFTEN. If its ALL the time, then this is unfair for the higher level players. But if they never play together, this is unfair for the lower level players who WANT to challenge themselves against better opponents. In my experience, this is best done (in doubles) in pairs, i.e. two better and two weaker players, one of each on each side of the court. If it becomes three of one type, then it is not fair on the fourth player (who is either playing with three very strong or weak opponents) and this is a bad situation to be in.
    Totally agree. But let me ask, lets say we have A grade, B grade and C grade players at the club, who should feel more obliged to play with the C players? IMO its the B players, what do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSeeley View Post
    4. Courts available - an excellent point, but on the other hand, how will the club ever grow? Can't they get more courts if more members join? That makes sense to me? Its when you turn people away because of not enough courts, and then some "regulars" leave, and then more people leave (through injury or otherwise) your club now has a problem - no new members because the club is known for turni
    ng people away.
    In many cases, they cant add more courts cos they are all already booked out. Also its not that easy to find another time or place. Most clubs i find are quite stable, i have been playing in 3 (mainly one) different places in the last many yrs and never they lack of members. In contrary, its always full more and more.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSeeley View Post
    5. Shuttle usage - seriously? Everywhere I have been its people who are less experienced, who are more prone to miss hitting shuttles, that cause the most shuttle damage, not the well struck (but potentially more powerful) shots of a more advanced player - consider better shuttles? They don't sound right to me :s
    I dont know for a fact if advanced players use more shuttle or not but, Yes seriously i heard some operator complaint about it.
    Last edited by Yoppy; 01-05-2011 at 08:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexh View Post
    I've seen higher level players getting on court with beginners, playing competitively, and totally crushing the beginners. Indeed this isn't much fun for either party. But if the higher level player is willing to try teaching beginners, they might find that it's enjoyable and rewarding. And it's possible to play a social game in a "teaching" spirit, giving the beginner shots they can handle. It's a good exercise, to think about where you're placing the shuttle, instead of playing by instinct and winning all the points quickly!
    Thats exactly what i meant, teaching is not so much fun for some. Learning is so much fun OTOH. Especially if the gap between the teacher and student is so great, the teacher will get easily bored.

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    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    i guess the point is not whether someone strong should be playing with someone weak, the point is whether they are willing to play with someone at a different level.

    at the clubs that i played where they are not cliquey, in the challenge courts (winner stays courts), i have seen weaker players challenging stronger ones, the strong players will play a decent games against the challengers. in fact, i myself have challenged national level players and they are cool with it.

    in the other gyms, the cliquey groups won't be happy to receive a challenge regardless of you relative ability. they simply don't want to play with you if you are not part of their group, strong or weak.

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    ehm at least if there is some kind of incentive, like to got stay on court, maybe the stronger players are more willing

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    No one should expect strong players to sacrifice all their playing time on noobs. But a little graciousness (especially in a social club setting) is good for your karma.
    Most of us have learned more about life from the gratuitous kindness of others than from paid instruction. Pay it forward when you can.

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    Just wanted to post a quick reply, some really interesting thoughts in this thread!

    Yoppy: Thanks for replying in such detail. I agree with you completely and hope others will be able to see two sides of the arguments! On the issues you raised: I think players who are not out to improve their tactics (a little bit of learning) should consider why they don't want to improve their badminton - all it takes is a little thought! I think it is less fun to not improve! Only wanting to play "the way they know" may be disrespectful to other players with different styles who want to enjoy the games as well!
    With regard to Grade A, B and C players, I think it is clear that B's will benefit from playing with A's, and C's from playing with B's and A's. Therefore, the answer is simple, A should play with both B's and C's every now and then, but mainly B's who will learn most from playing against A standard players, whilst B should spend some time playing with the C standard players, to help them, and maybe impart the knowledge they learnt from the A standard players. Therefore, the knowledge travels from the A grade, to the B's to the C's. I hope that makes sense.

    urameatball:
    I agree to a degree that advanced level players will obviously gain most and probably most enjoy, playing at a standard that challenges their skills. However, I think it is slightly selfish, and detrimental to helping more people enjoy badminton at higher levels, if those advanced players don't on occasion, play with weaker players. How else will those other players learn to play at a high standard with practising at that standard? Nobody will ever improve at all! I personally think spending 1 or 2 games a night playing with weaker players is NOT going to DECREASE their skill levels, however, it probably won't be beneficial to them either - but the people they play with will greatly appreciate having the chance to test themselves against higher standard players! If we don't give them these opportunities to learn and improve, then they will never reach those higher levels, and we won't get as many good games with lots of different players! Just my opinion

    Matt

    p.s. really enjoy reading other people opinions on this subject!

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    Totally agree matt - it is less fun not to improve. At the end of the day some people dont think like that only want to play socially at a certain level, they are usually nice people who are easily pleased not like me. When playing with these types there can be a mismatch.
    I play doubles back and front when attacking, side to side when defending.
    Personally i am not good enough to cope with players that dont understand this and find hard adjusting.
    When I explain this approach they dont seem to understand and think its a wierd idea, even some half decent players. I play an attacking shot right from the back only to find my partner is standing right next to me! Oppostion responds with a net shot point lost!
    I serve short to the T. Oppostion does a short lift and my partner, whose not that bad (infact a few months ago was a better player than me), who returns a nice easy kind of 3/4 court punch clear instead of an attcking shot. Not expecting this I immediately have to scramble back to take a defensive position it just confuses a newby like me who is learning the game.

    When playing doubles with someone who know what they are doing its great, when not personally its a drag.

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