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  1. #222
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow This is the practice in industry called PEER EVALUATION

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    I would disagree with that. the best judges are colleagues who are knowledgeable on what needs to be done.

    This is the practice in industry called PEER EVALUATION .This means being judged by people who are equal in terms of knowledge and what needs to be done.

    From personal experience trainers /teachers can be well liked by their charges if they are say lenient and easy going and

    accomodating, but this is tantamount to spoiling them and the results will not show.Those who are strict and go by best

    practice without fear or favour may not be well liked or praised by their charges but everyone will benefit in the end.

    To be judged good by the people in your charge iunder your influence or power is more like manipulating peoples'

    minds by politicians and marketeers.

    The TTC is an eg. of peer evaluation by equals, although it may not be perfect.Look up Wiki on this concept,

    it is now a very popular method.

    This is answering your question on the 5 choices,probably there will be other choices based on the person's background.
    .
    IMHO, the trainees (users) know best. People viewing at things as outsiders know less than the trainees (users) who are actually under the coach.

    Some examples (related to things outside Badminton coaching);

    1. Top manufacturers say that this racket is the best racket in the world (newest material, technology, etc......), but players (users) may find it not suitable for them.
    2. Top chefs awarded this dish as the most delicious dish (best ingredients, expensive ingredients, etc......), but eaters (users) may find it tasteless.
    3. Top teachers say that this new teacher just recruited should be the best teacher in their school (highest qualifications, very experienced, etc......), but students (users) may find lectures boring.
    4. Top film reviewers voted for this film as the best film this year (best acting, best story, etc......), but movie-goers (users) may find it dull.
    5. Top fashion designers voted for this dress as the most beautiful dress (newest design, latest fashion, etc......), but wearers (users) feel they don't look good in it.
    .

  2. #223
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    And you see no danger in this "one-size-fits-all" approach to decision-making powers?
    For that matter, are not committees more susceptible to manipulation and suggestion and delivering the required end-result by the actual powers that operate behind the curtain?
    Like I said, committees members can be appointed or voted in. Everything can be fine tuned and improved.

    Remember the 90s case of Leeson who was not subject to any form of check and balances in making company's investments,

    he bankrupted the whole (was it Barings) because he did not have to report to anyone and no one checked on him.

    Would you want to run an organisation like that, no check and balance?

  3. #224
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Like I said, committees members can be appointed or voted in. Everything can be fine tuned and improved.

    Remember the 90s case of Leeson who was not subject to any form of check and balances in making company's investments,

    he bankrupted the whole (was it Barings) because he did not have to report to anyone and no one checked on him.

    Would you want to run an organisation like that, no check and balance?
    Leeson didn't need a committee to rein him in. He got to do what he did because of greed up and down the line in Barings regardless of their public position. Only, he took the fall. You cannot trade to the limit if you are not given the powers to trade to the limit.

    I totally agree with the point about checks and balances; my issue however, is of use, misuse and abuse by any system. And manipulation of the system.

    But back to Misbun. Whoever cannot appreciate what he has achieved for Malaysia is "not all there" IMO.

  4. #225
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    IMHO, the trainees (users) know best. People viewing at things as outsiders know less than the trainees (users) who are actually under the coach.

    Some examples (related to things outside Badminton coaching);

    1. Top manufacturers say that this racket is the best racket in the world (newest material, technology, etc......), but players (users) may find it not suitable for them.
    2. Top chefs awarded this dish as the most delicious dish (best ingredients, expensive ingredients, etc......), but eaters (users) may find it tasteless.
    3. Top teachers say that this new teacher just recruited should be the best teacher in their school (highest qualifications, very experienced, etc......), but students (users) may find lectures boring.
    4. Top film reviewers voted for this film as the best film this year (best acting, best story, etc......), but movie-goers (users) may find it dull.
    5. Top fashion designers voted for this dress as the most beautiful dress (newest design, latest fashion, etc......), but wearers (users) feel they don't look good in it.
    .
    1,2,4 & 5 has one very clear distinction from 3. 1,2,4,5 is about satisfying customers.
    3, is not necessarily that, it is more about maintaining standards, at least in the UK system which is subject to Quality Audit.
    In Malaysia we have an MQA to monitor and audit the quality of programs not to make students happy, but mainly to
    maintain the standards of graduates to a reasonable standard.Education in USA,Australia or Canada may not be so
    commercialised.(corporatised if you like).

  5. #226
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Leeson didn't need a committee to rein him in. He got to do what he did because of greed up and down the line in Barings regardless of their public position. Only, he took the fall. You cannot trade to the limit if you are not given the powers to trade to the limit.

    I totally agree with the point about checks and balances; my issue however, is of use, misuse and abuse by any system. And manipulation of the system.

    But back to Misbun. Whoever cannot appreciate what he has achieved for Malaysia is "not all there" IMO.
    I doubt if anyone is unable to see his work on LCW. There's is simply too much attention heaped on him.

    What about the other coaches like Rexy, Tan Kim Her, Sun Cen Hua, Jeremy , Wong Tat Meng, etc.etc. ,

    they are all part of the team that built the Msia team, it is also a team effort.

    Didn't Li Mao comment about the lack of Collaboration amongsts departments in team events?

    To be great one needs to be able to accept constructive criticisms with an open mind so that there will be continuous improvement.Of course baseless criticisms are best ignored, but one should not recognise also some shortcomings
    of everyone.One should also be ready always to see other peoples' points of view and collaborate with them, I think this is called Team Spirit.

  6. #227
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Trainees/students are wiser than we think they are

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    1,2,4 & 5 has one very clear distinction from 3. 1,2,4,5 is about satisfying customers.
    3, is not necessarily that, it is more about maintaining standards, at least in the UK system which is subject to Quality Audit.
    In Malaysia we have an MQA to monitor and audit the quality of programs not to make students happy, but mainly to maintain the standards of graduates to a reasonable standard.Education in USA,Australia or Canada may not be so commercialised. (corporatised if you like).
    .
    It's not satisfying customers and/or maintaining standards that I am talking about. It's how the players feel what they can get from their coach.

    Our Melbourne University here is regarded by top academics worldwide as one of the top universities in the world. But would I listen to them or listen to students studying there?

    IHMO, trainees/students (the users) are wiser than what we think they are.

    Even here at BC, our readers are wiser than us stating our different theories, ideas and/or comments. They may be remaining silent, but they (the users) know whether we are talking rubbish or not. Again, it's up to them, the users, to decide.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 01-14-2011 at 09:50 PM.

  7. #228
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    I doubt if anyone is unable to see his work on LCW. There's is simply too much attention heaped on him.

    What about the other coaches like Rexy, Tan Kim Her, Sun Cen Hua, Jeremy , Wong Tat Meng, etc.etc. ,

    they are all part of the team that built the Msia team, it is also a team effort.

    Didn't Li Mao comment about the lack of Collaboration amongsts departments in team events?

    To be great one needs to be able to accept constructive criticisms with an open mind so that there will be continuous improvement.Of course baseless criticisms are best ignored, but one should not recognise also some shortcomings
    of everyone.One should also be ready always to see other peoples' points of view and collaborate with them, I think this is called Team Spirit.
    One should also know when it is time to stop wasting tie with people who have nothing positive to contribute, or who are more of a hindrance. And if that is not possible, to exit from such a situation.

    Other coaches have nothing taken away from them in terms of recognition. But should MS be blamed if their contribution is deemed to be "less" than his in any way by some people?

    The team effort is also dependant on whether team efforts are encouraged. It did not appear to be so. Again, this was not because of Misbun. It was because of the policies that had been instituted. But I think you should know more about this than I do.

  8. #229
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Therefore, when Misbun thinks it's not a good system, he decides to leave

    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    One should also know when it is time to stop wasting tie with people who have nothing positive to contribute, or who are more of a hindrance. And if that is not possible, to exit from such a situation.
    .
    That's what I meant in my previous posts. The TCC introduced a so called 'new' system. Therefore, when Misbun, the user of the system, thinks it's not a good system, he decides to leave.
    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Other coaches have nothing taken away from them in terms of recognition. But should MS be blamed if their contribution is deemed to be "less" than his in any way by some people?
    Here, some players, the users of the coaches, think that Misbun's system is better. Therefore, they are thinking of following Misbun to leave BAM.
    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    The team effort is also dependant on whether team efforts are encouraged. It did not appear to be so. Again, this was not because of Misbun. It was because of the policies that had been instituted. But I think you should know more about this than I do.
    The TCC brought in these new policies without consulting with their users (coaches and players). There is no such thing as 'team effort'. The TCC wanted to be boss and said to everyone: "You just do it the TCC way".
    .

  9. #230
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    That's what I meant in my previous posts. The TCC introduced a so called 'new' system. Therefore, when Misbun, the user of the system, thinks it's not a good system, he decides to leave.

    Here, some players, the users of the coaches, think that Misbun's system is better. Therefore, they are thinking of following Misbun to leave BAM.

    The TCC brought in these new policies without consulting with their users (coaches and players). There is no such thing as 'team effort'. The TCC wanted to be boss and said to everyone: "You just do it the TCC way"..
    Not consulting users is not correct, you have to check Era's revelelation who the members of the TCC.

    Misbun is one of them.

  10. #231
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    It's not satisfying customers and/or maintaining standards that I am talking about. It's how the players feel what they can get from their coach.

    Our Melbourne University here is regarded by top academics worldwide as one of the top universities in the world. But would I listen to them or listen to students studying there?

    IHMO, trainees/students (the users) are wiser than what we think they are.

    Even here at BC, our readers are wiser than us stating our different theories, ideas and/or comments. They may be remaining silent, but they (the users) know whether we are talking rubbish or not. Again, it's up to them, the users, to decide.
    .
    I agree with you on the last para.We are free to state our views.Readers deciding who to believe is an eg. of Peer Evaluation.

  11. #232
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    I agree with you on the last para.We are free to state our views.Readers deciding who to believe is an eg. of Peer Evaluation.
    I also agree with you on Melbourne U but you also need to be aware that many Us dont operate like that,

    they are more commercial and are not discerning when accepting students, they have other motives,

    then students dont know what they want and become a hindrance.

  12. #233
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    One should also know when it is time to stop wasting tie with people who have nothing positive to contribute, or who are more of a hindrance. And if that is not possible, to exit from such a situation.

    Other coaches have nothing taken away from them in terms of recognition. But should MS be blamed if their contribution is deemed to be "less" than his in any way by some people?

    The team effort is also dependant on whether team efforts are encouraged. It did not appear to be so. Again, this was not because of Misbun. It was because of the policies that had been instituted. But I think you should know more about this than I do.
    To be honest I dont. It may be because of the concept and mindset of "corporatisation".

    But not to discredit MS even his family say that he can be a bit eccentric. In 1980 he walked out of the BAM and coach Tan Yee Khan because he disliked his training and instead trained on his own presumably with Eddy.That was when BAM was a loose ,small outfit where everybody knew each other and no one checked on each other.
    If I remember rightly his career was in doldrums until 1986,where he entered the final. From then on his career shot up and his
    lack of fitness was past.
    Not much was achieved in Msian badminton until 1992.
    I think this corporisation set-up was done @1998 prior to the Commonwealth Games.
    Now this is one area where my memory is quite hazy and needs a lot of refreshing.

    But I would recommend that we no longer mention Misbun as weeks ago he already appealed in the press to leave him alone and in peace.Let's leave him alone, and say neither good or bad, enough has been said already until we are repeating ourselves,
    lets' discuss whether the BAM knows what it is doing and along the way give it some breathing space.

  13. #234
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs down The suggestions made by Misbun (the hands-on coach) weren't accepted

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Not consulting users is not correct, you have to check Era's revelelation who the members of the TCC.

    Misbun is one of them.
    .
    Yes, most of us knew that.

    The final outcome was that suggestions made by Misbun (the hands-on coach) weren't accepted. That's why Misbun has decided to quit.
    .

  14. #235
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Be aware that many us dont operate like that

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    I also agree with you on Melbourne U but you also need to be aware that many us dont operate like that,

    they are more commercial and are not discerning when accepting students, they have other motives,

    then students dont know what they want and become a hindrance.
    .
    I believe both university and students know what they themselves want (separately).

    As long as their wants are not clashing (like this BAM-vs-MS case), no big drama will unfold.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 01-15-2011 at 12:30 AM.

  15. #236
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    To be honest I dont. It may be because of the concept and mindset of "corporatisation".

    But not to discredit MS even his family say that he can be a bit eccentric. In 1980 he walked out of the BAM and coach Tan Yee Khan because he disliked his training and instead trained on his own presumably with Eddy.That was when BAM was a loose ,small outfit where everybody knew each other and no one checked on each other.
    ....snip....
    LOL The more I hear about Misbun the more I like and admire the man. Here is a guy who obviously has the courage of his convictions, and follows his convictions. Unlike many others who just blindly follow or go along with any majority. To discover something new or a better way, you have to often walk a lonely path. You will not find any corporate bean counters on that path!

  16. #237
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    When we make judgments on whether a system is working properly,we should also look at the internal problems such as size,mindset ,culture , type of operations etc. At the same time we should do some environmental scanning as to external factors influencing the choice of systems.

    It so happens today that Msia wants to upgrade itself to a first world country and wants to adopt systems on par with countries like China,Korea,Japan ,US etc. East Asian countries like China have become the world's factories and many arts and crafts have been reduced to a science. In US a simple burger outlet can become an international chain because it practices
    systems engineering, there are no secrets ,every work process is analysed ,reduced to a set of written procedures and compiled in a staff manual. Every time you start work there is no training ,just read the manual and start from step1.This manual is used all over the world and if everyone follows it, you get the same burger anywhere.This bring out consistency and quality in the product, it is not a secret kept in the head of anyone. It is possible that badminton has already or is in the process of being engineered like that.If the person is not trained in this change mindset he would not be able to cope with the stress of having to write reports, write down his processes, write SWOT anlayses etc. etc.All these systems are turning Arts into sciences, even when you go to hospital you are treated a patient to be cured , rather a product to be serviced to fit the routines and availability of the system.

    The 2nd challenge here in Msia is that governance and transparency.Here in Msia when you are using public funds and funds from GLC's like Maybank and Proton, all dealings have to be proper and above board and follow guidelines set out.Once an executive steps out of line anyone can report him to the MACC of graft and the officer will have to spend time in the MACC
    interrogation room.

    Both are what is called Benchmarking ,set standards comparable with the rest of the world and other industries.

    I think it was first pioneered by the US and Europe and goes by some fancy name "Business Process Re-engineering or BPR for short.

    Like I said this is in response to external environmental influences and vary from country to country and region to region.

  17. #238
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    I believe both university and students know what they themselves want (separately).

    As long as their wants are not clashing (like this BAM-vs-MS case), no big drama will unfold.
    .
    Then I think you made a good choice in Melbourne.

    And dont forget that there is an International Ranking for the best 200 or so Us,

    guess how they do the evaluation?

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