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  1. #239
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    "corporate bean counters on that path"

    Ha,ha I like that. I hate them too but I manged to survive 3 decades working under such people.

    But they are not all bean counters, there are also "systems engineers" analysing and arranging work processes and

    estimating the value of each process and the overall operations
    and demanding me writing down all the processes, giving them values
    and continuously improving on them. Tons of paperwork and meetings!

  2. #240
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    I think you're missing the point. No one can dispute that your knowledge of business processes and corporate structure and their raisons d'etre are very in-depth. But the real question here is: which processes have been checked, tested and found fundamentally correct for implementation at BAM in the current form of the association? Who has been involved in the project? What are their credentials and wha experience do they bring to the table? Is someone driving an attempt at a consunsus? Is there valid and justifiable disagreement to some important concepts that are being attempted?

    Just being reactive to the industrialized and "advanced" nations and their pre-occupation and fascination with "process" and "corporate" and "documentation" and "standardization" is not necessarily the correct way to do things. All systems are misused, abused, mismanaged, corrupted and mangled. The more "in-depth" and "comprehensive" the more chances of this happening. Eventually all that you have described, is about control. In every sense of the word. Art and talent cannot flourish in that atmosphere. Only mediocrity.

  3. #241
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    It needs another element called TQM and a spirit of continuous improvement on top of the standardisation etc.

    I am not here to show people what I know, rather to demonstrate a better understand of the type of Re-thinking

    required for managing for survival. Please read in between the lines and see the underlying intentions, everything discussed

    are only models and examples and like I said it varies to place to place according to internal influences and external influences.

    Please form your own conclusions.

  4. #242
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    1,2,4 & 5 has one very clear distinction from 3. 1,2,4,5 is about satisfying customers.
    3, is not necessarily that, it is more about maintaining standards, at least in the UK system which is subject to Quality Audit.
    In Malaysia we have an MQA to monitor and audit the quality of programs not to make students happy, but mainly to
    maintain the standards of graduates to a reasonable standard.Education in USA,Australia or Canada may not be so
    commercialised.(corporatised if you like).
    In theory text books suggest you do a total Stakeholder's Analysis to rank and accord weightage to the evaluators

  5. #243
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    I think you're missing the point. No one can dispute that your knowledge of business processes and corporate structure and their raisons d'etre are very in-depth. But the real question here is: which processes have been checked, tested and found fundamentally correct for implementation at BAM in the current form of the association? Who has been involved in the project? What are their credentials and wha experience do they bring to the table? Is someone driving an attempt at a consunsus? Is there valid and justifiable disagreement to some important concepts that are being attempted?

    Just being reactive to the industrialized and "advanced" nations and their pre-occupation and fascination with "process" and "corporate" and "documentation" and "standardization" is not necessarily the correct way to do things. All systems are misused, abused, mismanaged, corrupted and mangled. The more "in-depth" and "comprehensive" the more chances of this happening. Eventually all that you have described, is about control. In every sense of the word. Art and talent cannot flourish in that atmosphere. Only mediocrity.
    Do you consider the Japanese Thomas Cup team mediocre or of consistent quality or having outstanding players?

  6. #244
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Write a report to explain failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    In theory text books suggest you do a total Stakeholder's Analysis to rank and accord weightage to the evaluators
    .
    Same here, I agree with cobalt; that you have gone overboard with your theory/analysis for bosses/evaluators.

    I think, more often than not, one of the reasons bosses tell their workers to write a report to explain failure is just to control the workers. It is better to tell workers to write notes of suggestions/recommendations.

    Just imagine this: One day you cooked and your spouse said your dish tasted terrible. Then your spouse told you to write a report on why the quality of your cooking wasn't good.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 01-15-2011 at 03:15 AM.

  7. #245
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Same here, I agree with cobalt; that you have gone overboard with your theory/analysis for bosses/evaluators.

    I think, more often than not, one of the reasons bosses tell their workers to write a report to explain failure is just to control the workers. It is better to tell workers to write notes of suggestions/recommendations.

    Just imagine this: One day you cooked and your spouse said your dish tasted terrible. Then your spouse told you to write a report why the quality of your cooking wasn't good.
    .
    But I do not agree , it is necessary to write a report on certain failures. It can be misconstrued as an act to incriminate people but in theory, it is to ascertain whether the player knows what he is doing and able to identify his own strengths and weaknesses.Then they will know why they lost or won and be able to perform better next time.
    But it is overzealous and going overboard when you ask people to write a report why they lose 10 out of 10 times.

    Even in staff appraisal evaluation forms in the workplace they actually identify your short-comings and request you
    suggest corrective steps on how to improve . That is the concept/principle of Continuous Improvement.

    It takes getting used to though and sometimes the way the interview is conducted is more like an interrogation, that's where the resentment comes in.I am sure the so called silent majority here have been subjected to such appraisals/evaluations.Even writing a report is sometimes better than being interviewed by a committee. You will experience all these if your U requires you to undergo a viva before they award you a first class or sth.

    No one likes people to comment on their work and check on that work. It all began in the 1930s when Ford Motors engaged

    Frederick Taylor to monitor auto worker's work output instead of allowing them to work without monitoring their input/output.

    Of course he also suggested that output beyond the norm be awarded bonuses.

    The auto workers were very resentful and at first refused to cooperate, so today we have Unions and standard outputs and rates for various industries.It is all recoded in textbooks as Taylor's scientific management and possibly in Wiki.You will experience this if you take a Management program.

    But when you behave like that to your spouse I think its time for a divorce.

  8. #246
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    I think you're missing the point. No one can dispute that your knowledge of business processes and corporate structure and their raisons d'etre are very in-depth. But the real question here is: which processes have been checked, tested and found fundamentally correct for implementation at BAM in the current form of the association? Who has been involved in the project? What are their credentials and wha experience do they bring to the table? Is someone driving an attempt at a consunsus? Is there valid and justifiable disagreement to some important concepts that are being attempted?

    Just being reactive to the industrialized and "advanced" nations and their pre-occupation and fascination with "process" and "corporate" and "documentation" and "standardization" is not necessarily the correct way to do things. All systems are misused, abused, mismanaged, corrupted and mangled. The more "in-depth" and "comprehensive" the more chances of this happening. Eventually all that you have described, is about control. In every sense of the word. Art and talent cannot flourish in that atmosphere. Only mediocrity.
    Pls read read again post 219 about TCC 's short term goals, it doesn't include producing another LCW.

  9. #247
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    In theory text books suggest you do a total Stakeholder's Analysis to rank and accord weightage to the evaluators
    I think American Idol and Britain's got talent may be an example of peer evaluation and judging.

    Maybe other sports like gymnastics etc.etc.

  10. #248
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    Be realistic, rules are meant to be broken. Ask those BAM guys to see if they can keep track or be discipline enough to follow those so called 'lessons learnt'. Most management engage in 'Fear Management' style. Just like politics.

    So this goes to say, let the techies rules and just get a few paper pushers or bean counters to work for them. It will be more effective and efficient. Many don't or can't walk the talk.

  11. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Do you consider the Japanese Thomas Cup team mediocre or of consistent quality or having outstanding players?
    The Japanese TC team is more mediocre/consistent than outstanding. The MAS TC team more inconsistent/mediocre that's usually saved by one or two outstanding contributors. The JPN team has an advantage because of PJB,a brilliant strategist and tactician. You can tell this coach has done his homework thoroughly.
    in sports, win/ lose can depend on the form during the match. That's why upsets are common in sports.
    In sports, passion fuelled by hard work is key to producing outstanding players of world class quality and to win the TC, you only need to deliver at least 3 such players.

    The corporate system won't be able to deliver because it lacks passion. The corporate system is concerned about replicating consistent quality on a mass basis.

  12. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Pls read read again post 219 about TCC 's short term goals, it doesn't include producing another LCW.
    What has BE achieved since Hall? I wonder if KJ has a coach certificate?
    it seems TCC s objective is not to produce another LCW because they can actually be held hostage by him. TCC also seem to believe that by producing enough good players, MAS can win TC. How naive. Why do MAS coaches have to report to a bunch of people who do not appreciate world standards?

    if the objective is to just produce enough good players, why are they aiming for TC or Olympics gold? Do they know what it takes tp win TC or Olympics? you gotta deliver 3 world class players, not just one!

  13. #251
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Wink Can anyone tell us how it is expected for LCW to react/reply?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Pls read read again post 219 about TCC's short term goals, it doesn't include producing another LCW.
    .
    Cannot blame why LCW didn't like the changes either.

    LCW wishes to win the 2012 Olympic Games GOLD medal.

    TCC says "Hold it, it's not only for you, Lee Chong Wei. We do it for our national interest".

    Can anyone tell us how it is expected for LCW to react/reply?

    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 01-15-2011 at 05:26 AM.

  14. #252
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    That 4 letter word followed by 'you' with exclamation mark !!! ? lol.

  15. #253
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Wink We shall have no foul language at BadmintonCentral

    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    That 4 letter word followed by 'you' with exclamation mark !!! ? lol.
    .
    Cool it. We shall have no foul language at BadmintonCentral.
    .

  16. #254
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    Be realistic, rules are meant to be broken. Ask those BAM guys to see if they can keep track or be discipline enough to follow those so called 'lessons learnt'. Most management engage in 'Fear Management' style. Just like politics.

    So this goes to say, let the techies rules and just get a few paper pushers or bean counters to work for them. It will be more effective and efficient. Many don't or can't walk the talk.
    You have to also consider whether the loose system in the past actually run by P.Gunalan is better than the bulky system today. There was even more unhappiness in the past because of this system when everything was decided by one man, there was even more problems with money.You gain something but lose sth else.I wonder if the sponsors or MSN will approve of such a system when you realise the kind of people making decisions ie."corporate".

  17. #255
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    The Japanese TC team is more mediocre/consistent than outstanding. The MAS TC team more inconsistent/mediocre that's usually saved by one or two outstanding contributors. The JPN team has an advantage because of PJB,a brilliant strategist and tactician. You can tell this coach has done his homework thoroughly.
    in sports, win/ lose can depend on the form during the match. That's why upsets are common in sports.
    In sports, passion fuelled by hard work is key to producing outstanding players of world class quality and to win the TC, you only need to deliver at least 3 such players.

    The corporate system won't be able to deliver because it lacks passion. The corporate system is concerned about replicating consistent quality on a mass basis.
    I agree with you on last para.Dont you think they are actually trying to build a team from scratch,starting all over. and then build up a team with no heroes but quantity like The Japanese team?

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