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  1. #392
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by george@chongwei View Post
    What's the latest for this guy now?
    I think BAM will be in for a shock!

    Misbun will tell them right in the face, adamantly: "I don't need any of these so-called scientists".

    "I'll do it MY WAY or not at all!"

    ... and so the saga continues ...

  2. #393
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Smile Perhaps, Misbun doesn't even know

    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    I think BAM will be in for a shock!

    Misbun will tell them right in the face, adamantly: "I don't need any of these so-called scientists".

    "I'll do it MY WAY or not at all!"

    ... and so the saga continues ...
    .
    Perhaps, Misbun doesn't even know that BAM will be getting 14 sports science specialists in their "Road to London 2012" Badminton programme.
    .

  3. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    It will be complete if a tactician is there
    Why don't you apply?
    As for 14 specialists, err...14 opinions, sangat susah lah, how to listen Sounds like a job creation programme, keeps someone gainfully employed at taxpayer expense

  4. #395
    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    'Like' this........

  5. #396
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Loh;1625458]I think BAM will be in for a shock!

    Misbun will tell them right in the face, adamantly: "I don't need any of these so-called scientists".

    "I'll do it MY WAY or not at all!" {quote}

    I wonder if things are done "My way" whether there will be a whole bunch of juniors

    injured and out like Wong Mew Choo because of overtraining and stuff.

    Certain methods fit players like Foo KK or Lee CW but may not be universal.They can probably out-run marathon runners.

    It is probably the CTC's thinking and reason for a more scientific approach rather than traditional mumbo jumbo.

    Probably the reason why Japan is so successful. Even the Korean Kim Dong Moon has now like Park J B obtained his PHD and becoming a

    professor in Korea.Ng Mee Fen also has returned to BJSS as coach with a degree in Sports Science.

    I think badminton may join other sports and other industries in developing a scientific approach.

    Everyone knows Brazil and Argentina have brilliant players and coaches but it is the scientific approach that found success for

    technologically advanced nations like Germany,Spain and Holland in football.

    I am not trying to run down anyone, just mentioning worldwide trends and knowledge development in all industries,the traditional mode

    may need some re-thinking.

    i think an analogy would be like the Japs and Koreans simplifying and cutting out all the waste and developing Karate and Tae Kwan Do

    which is easier to learn and probably more efficient than "heavy" and complex traditional martial arts. If all this investment in technology is irrelevant what's the point of setting up the MSN and BJSS, might as well learn in Garden International School.

    Just something to think about .
    Last edited by Bbn; 02-19-2011 at 02:32 AM.

  6. #397
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Malaysia has a great tradition in Sepak Takraw for eg. but regus from China are even knocking at their doors

    in the Asiad.China has no tradition or history in Takraw but they are able to take it up to a high level without

    depending on any traditional methods but thru a good development system.

    This eg. should be quite useful.

  7. #398
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Question How much of Badminton is Art or Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    I wonder if things are done "My way" whether there will be a whole bunch of juniors injured and out like Wong Mew Choo because of overtraining and stuff.

    Certain methods fit players like Foo KK or Lee CW but may not be universal. They can probably out-run marathon runners.

    It is probably the CTC's thinking and reason for a more scientific approach rather than traditional mumbo jumbo.

    Probably the reason why Japan is so successful. Even the Korean Kim Dong Moon has now like Park J B obtained his PHD and becoming a professor in Korea. Ng Mee Fen also has returned to BJSS as coach with a degree in Sports Science.

    I think badminton may join other sports and other industries in developing a scientific approach.

    Everyone knows Brazil and Argentina have brilliant players and coaches but it is the scientific approach that found success for technologically advanced nations like Germany, Spain and Holland in football.

    I am not trying to run down anyone, just mentioning worldwide trends and knowledge development in all industries, the traditional mode may need some re-thinking.

    I think an analogy would be like the Japanese and Koreans simplifying and cutting out all the waste and developing Karate and Tae Kwan Do which is easier to learn and probably more efficient than "heavy" and complex traditional martial arts. If all this investment in technology is irrelevant what's the point of setting up the MSN and BJSS, might as well learn in Garden International School.

    Just something to think about.
    .
    That was why I asked in a previous post; How much of Badminton is Art or Science?

    IMHO, Badminton is more Art (skill based). It is Art when we talk about;

    * Good Strokes
    * Good Footwork
    * Workable Tactics
    * etc, etc, ......

    However, Science is useful in other aspects (research based) like;

    * Good Diet
    * Proper Rest
    * Prevention of injuries
    * etc, etc, ......

    Both Art and Science can help when we want to improve in;

    * Speed (movement)
    * Stamina (endurance)
    * Strength (power)
    * etc, etc, ......
    .

  8. #399
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    It could also be approach to coaching ie.methods.

    Traditionally coaches probably assign a set of tasks for players to perform without actually knowing the value and relevance.

    Players may not comply,because they cannot see the relevance then they get squashed in competition.

    The squashed player learns from the school of hard knocks, then he goes back to the coach asking why he keeps losing,

    the coach tells him to work on the tasks assigned to him or design new tasks.

    This way, both coach and player are learning together, and the responsibility of training and learning rests on the player,

    if he doesn't take some initiative, he will keep losing or get fired as the coach has already guided him.

    Chris CC whether Art or Science read the book' Playing Badminton Singles " by Jake Downey written in 1980 (many in BC have read it) and you will find the answer.

  9. #400
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default Badminton is more Art than Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Chris CCC whether Art or Science read the book "Playing Badminton Singles" by Jake Downey written in 1980 (many in BC have read it) and you will find the answer.
    .
    Yes, I have read Jake Downey's book (many years ago), but IMHO, Badminton is more Art than Science. It is because Badminton is skill based.

    It is like;

    * Playing a musical instrument
    * Cooking a meal
    * Conducting/chairing a meeting
    * etc, etc, ......

    They are all skill based.

    I was just replying to my trainees (minutes ago);

    Tomorrow's lesson would be;

    (1) Footwork................To enable us to get to every shot during a rally
    (2) Players' Position......To position us to cover every location during a rally
    (3) Breathing Method....To allow us enough oxygen to continue in a long rally
    (4) Selection of Shots....How best to cut short a rally (the best option)

    Some sports scientists may help in (3). But in (1), (2) or (4), I am not sure if sports scientists have any idea what I am talking about.

    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 02-19-2011 at 06:31 AM.

  10. #401
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    Why don't you apply?
    As for 14 specialists, err...14 opinions, sangat susah lah, how to listen Sounds like a job creation programme, keeps someone gainfully employed at taxpayer expense
    Nah...only 14 members maybe when it's a full orchestra .....

  11. #402
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up BAM will be getting 14 sports science specialists......

    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    Nah...only 14 members maybe when it's a full orchestra .....
    .
    BAM will be getting 14 sports science specialists in their "Road to London 2012" Badminton programme.

    I wonder how many will be in-charge of;

    * Stamina (endurance)
    * Good Diet
    * Proper Rest
    * Prevention of injuries

    All these are desperately required by MAS players, I should think.

    .

  12. #403
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Yes, I have read Jake Downey's book (many years ago), but IMHO, Badminton is more Art than Science. It is because Badminton is skill based.

    It is like;

    * Playing a musical instrument
    * Cooking a meal
    * Conducting/chairing a meeting
    * etc, etc, ......

    They are all skill based.

    I was just replying to my trainees (minutes ago);

    Tomorrow's lesson would be;

    (1) Footwork................To enable us to get to every shot during a rally
    (2) Players' Position......To position us to cover every location during a rally
    (3) Breathing Method....To allow us enough oxygen to continue in a long rally
    (4) Selection of Shots....How best to cut short a rally (the best option)

    Some sports scientists may help in (3). But in (1), (2) or (4), I am not sure if sports scientists have any idea what I am talking about.

    .
    You must be right but what about things like :

    1) The speed at which the rally is played ie.how many shots per minute
    2) Trajectory of shots and their effectiveness
    3) Spin of the shuttle
    4) Concentration
    5) Anticipation and reading body language
    6) Visualisation of the court
    7) High/low percentage shots etc.

    Do you consider them more art or science?

  13. #404
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Skill is not easy to be measured

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    You must be right but what about things like :

    1) The speed at which the rally is played ie.how many shots per minute
    2) Trajectory of shots and their effectiveness
    3) Spin of the shuttle
    4) Concentration
    5) Anticipation and reading body language
    6) Visualisation of the court
    7) High/low percentage shots etc.

    Do you consider them more art or science?
    .
    Good one.

    As soon as observations can be measured (such as speed, visualisation, etc, ...), then science can be used to analyse the data generated.

    My take is: Skill is not easy to be measured.

    .

  14. #405
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    But surely it requires a scientific analytical mind to be able to judge or estimate what dosage of the above to apply and when ,at least an educated guess.

    Otherwise bad judgement will result in wrong tactics.It is probably not sports science but estimating risk and working out a rough formula of mix of dosages to get the best results.It is just deductive ,reductionist (scientific analysis) thinking followed by a synthesis, like the sinseh mixing his concoction.

    Maybe Park Joo Bong or Li mao are masters of this. Anyway I am no expert, its what I have learnt to reduce to a simple operations manual many perceived "crafts",it is merely sth to think about.

  15. #406
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Cool I shall leave this debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    But surely it requires a scientific analytical mind to be able to judge or estimate what dosage of the above to apply and when, at least an educated guess.

    Otherwise bad judgement will result in wrong tactics. It is probably not sports science but estimating risk and working out a rough formula of mix of dosages to get the best results. It is just deductive, reductionist (scientific analysis) thinking followed by a synthesis, like the sinseh mixing his concoction.

    Maybe Park Joo Bong or Li mao are masters of this. Anyway I am no expert, its what I have learnt to reduce to a simple operations manual many perceived "crafts", it is merely sth to think about.
    .
    I shall leave this debate.

    Why? Because I cannot understand how Science can replace the Art of;

    * Playing 'good' Badminton
    * Playing 'good' music
    * Cooking 'good' food
    * Conducting/chairing a 'good' meeting
    * etc, etc, ......

    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 02-19-2011 at 08:28 AM.

  16. #407
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Yes, I have read Jake Downey's book (many years ago), but IMHO, Badminton is more Art than Science. It is because Badminton is skill based.

    It is like;

    * Playing a musical instrument
    * Cooking a meal
    * Conducting/chairing a meeting
    * etc, etc, ......

    They are all skill based.

    I was just replying to my trainees (minutes ago);

    Tomorrow's lesson would be;

    (1) Footwork................To enable us to get to every shot during a rally
    (2) Players' Position......To position us to cover every location during a rally
    (3) Breathing Method....To allow us enough oxygen to continue in a long rally
    (4) Selection of Shots....How best to cut short a rally (the best option)

    Some sports scientists may help in (3). But in (1), (2) or (4), I am not sure if sports scientists have any idea what I am talking about.

    .
    Chris, that was very close to what misbun once said to the guy who always ask for reports .... Lol

    We need sports science no doubt in training and preparations

    but during tournament days what can they really do

    Before the game:

    Player: the match is about to start
    S.Scientist: yes, let's do some dynamic stretching!

    Player: I am nervous
    S.Scientist: yes try do some special breathing!

    Player: my muscle is stiff
    S.Scientist: yes, let me give you a good rub!

    During the game:

    Player: I am losing points, what should I do?
    S.Scientist: trying smashing and tapping?!

    Player: why every time I smash I still can't get point instead I have to run more?
    S.Scientist: you were not fast enough, that's why la...

    After the match:

    Player: I lost again..sigh..
    S.Scientist: You need more sprinting in your program because speed and power is the name of the game.

    Player: but my opponent only block here and there, he doesn't have speed and power
    S.Scientist: ok, then add block here and there into your program...

  17. #408
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Sports scientists are required for the preparation before the match

    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    Chris, that was very close to what misbun once said to the guy who always ask for reports .... Lol

    We need sports science no doubt in training and preparations

    but during tournament days what can they really do
    .
    Sports scientists are required for the preparation before the match.

    During a match, after the data are collected and analysed, the match would already have finished/completed/ended.

    .

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