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  1. #562
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mafan View Post
    I am sorry, I am not adept at quoting someone’s post and replying to it, so I will just do it the hard way by putting their post or partial post in brackets so you know whose words I may be addressing. I know there is the “Reply With Quote” convenience button but I can’t seem to work it right. My reference to a poster whose nickname on the board is vague as to gender as “he” is not male chauvinism but for convenience only.

    [Bbn’s post #542 - “... many in the badminton fraternity who believe that Eddy’s views ... belong to a past era.”]

    If anyone believes that EC’s views belong to a past era, then I would strongly disagree. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions, but I dare say they are wrong. I am not back here to try to change their minds but merely to explain why I feel so strongly that EC’s views cannot be casually discounted. EC may be old, but he is no dinosaur.

    In just that one video clip I cited, it shows clearly that despite being a player of a past era, EC is very much in tune with the progress of the sport and the technological advancements that can help in training and coaching. He is also quite well-read about many sports, not just badminton and has had contact with many world champions. As I see it, he is keenly aware that modern technology and methods should work hand in hand with old fashioned expertise, acumen and experience. He just does not think that folks should rely so much on technology that they forget good old-fashioned hard work and common sense when developing a player into a true world-class player. He speaks about videos and computers, etc. and stresses that one still needs a skilled person to interpret what the video shows. He reminds us that the Chinese scout and observe other players so as to really understand their opponents. Viewing tapes is helpful, but there is no substitute for actual observation of players in action. Perhaps this is why Misbun Sidek is often seen writing on his note pad during games.

    EC talks about the Australian example and the expensive technological tools they use but still have not become a major force in badminton. This just means that technology is helpful but the contributions of a good coach unfettered by administrative restraints can make the difference between building a mediocre player and a truly world-class athlete. As I see it, besides LCW, everyone else in the Malaysian singles lineup is either mediocre or less than mediocre (I do not include Wong Choong Hann who is past his prime and whom I applaud for still playing competitive badminton and whom I believe is still better than any other player in Malaysia besides LCW). It is a darn shame and a testimonial to the incompetency of BAM that it has failed to nurture Malaysian junior champions into world-class beaters time and time again. And time and time again, BAM likes to put the blame on others like the coaches or players.


    [Bbn’s post #543 - “... player must know why he won or lost... If you cannot write the report at least it can be done orally.”]

    I do not know what Bbn’s point is over here but I assume that he is in support of BAM’s policies including the requirement of reports by the coaches, since the context in which he quotes EC and his subsequent posts appear to support BAM when he says that everyone has to report to someone. If this is Bbn’s point (and I apologize to Bbn if I have misunderstood his post), then I think he has misunderstood EC’s words when EC is quoted by Bbn to have said that a player must know why he won or lost.

    I believe EC was referring more to a coach developing a player in such a manner that the player acquires the ability to analyze his own match and be able to determine why he was victorious or vanquished. And I believe how a player develops the ability to know why he won or lost is through experience and knowledge passed on by a good and competent coach. No computer can do that. Reviewing a tape of a match will not help if that same good and competent coach is not there to interpret what the tape reveals. You need someone who is an expert in the game to properly review and interpret the tape. As the coach and player go through this exercise time and time again over the course of months and years of their player-coach relationship, the player will in turn develop the ability to independently analyze his game and understand why he won or lost. But I believe there is no need for any report, written or oral, to anyone else. So long as the player and the coach understand each other and their progress together, that is good enough.

    To be fair, I do not know what kind of reports BAM wants the coaches to write, but I cannot see any viable circumstance where a written report would be necessary, except perhaps an expense report. As far as I am concerned, I think the request for reports is just another way for BAM to continue its meddlesome ways and to second-guess the coach. If you hired the coach, it should mean you trust and believe in the coach and his knowledge and methods, whatever they may be. If you want the coach to keep reporting to you in writing, you might as well just read coaching books, pick and choose what you like and then compile it all into your own coaching manual and then hire a monkey to implement the coaching program using the so-called coaching manual.

    I believe EC does not shun modern training methods, equipment, technology, etc., but merely advises those who will listen that one cannot place too much emphasis on technology but should understand that good, old fashioned hard work and coaching is still crucial. And I agree with him.

    BAM is perhaps too reliant on technology, tools and other methods and has relegated coaches down a few rungs. Why else would they disrespect the coaches they hire and discount the coaches’ opinions and keep interfering with the coaches’ work? Several coaches have already publicly voiced their displeasure about the meddlesome administration/management while coaching in Malaysia.

    Perhaps BAM is too anxious in their chase for the country’s first Olympic gold medal. They want the first gold medal to come from badminton so they can get the recognition and bask in the glory. There are other sports that could potentially win gold in London and cycling comes to mind. If everything falls into place perfectly for Azizul Hasni Awang on race days and with some good luck, he just might pull it off. We sometimes talk about a player wanting to win so much that he ends up losing because perhaps he did not have the maturity to keep everything in proper balance and perspective during the match. This may be a case of the national association wanting to win the Olympic gold so much that they fail to keep things in balance and fail to maintain the proper perspective in all the preparations leading up to the tournament. In its eagerness for glory, I fear BAM is over-controlling things and that may be laying the groundwork for a huge disappointment for us badminton fans and fans of LCW next summer in London. Report-writing, committee here, committee there - this all just shows a lack of faith and confidence in the coaches and players on BAM’s part.

    But I have faith in LCW, his discipline and his hard work and I hope he succeeds in his quest for gold at the big “O” despite all the meddling by the national association. If LCW wins the gold at next year’s Olympics, I will give credit to LCW and MS and none to BAM (not that BAM will care) even if MS does not return as LCW’s coach. Of course, credit will also be given to TSB or whoever the coach may be then. I cannot give credit to BAM because LCW has developed into such an extraordinary athlete under MS’s guidance despite BAM’s many shortcomings that he would likely succeed anywhere he plays or anywhere he goes and no matter whose banner he plays under. If BAM was any good at what it does at all, then the state of Malaysian badminton would not be in the current dire situation where there is absolutely no one in the horizon capable of stepping into the Datuk’s shoes when he retires, let alone pose a serious challenge at world-class tournaments. For a sports organization to be deemed successful at what it does, it has to show better results than just bask in the moment in the glory brought to it by a rare and extraordinary talent.


    [Bbn’s post #544 - “... the CTC which all coaches report to are made up of many coaches too. MS is one of them...”]

    I am aware of that but the CTC was something the BAM administration came up with. The coaches had no choice but to go along even though some coaches appeared to lend their support. My belief is that if they felt they were free to voice their true opinions, they would have told the administrators to take a hike.


    [chris-ccc’s post #545 -“Here is the link”]

    Chris, thanks for putting up the link for the video clip of EC so more can see it. Whether the viewers support his position or not is not as important as making his voice heard since the Malaysian media apparently shy away from publicizing his views.


    [cobalt’s post #546 - “... I’d like to know if all the CTC members will resign if they have not been able to get MAS players into the top 10 rankings within a year. And will they apologize to the country for having possibly set back Malaysian badminton by one full generation?”]

    I get your sentiment here, cobalt, but I think it is not the entire CTC that needs to take some responsibility (not necessarily all) because the CTC comprises of coaches too. I believe it is BAM’s administration that should bear the brunt of the blame. After all, it is its policies and its honchos’ management skills or lack thereof that has caused Malaysia’s young players’ progress to stagnate or their full potential never realized. Yes, of course BAM likes to blame the coaches and players for failures and steal the limelight and glory for successes. It is exactly this kind of mentality that fosters disunity and discontentment in the organization. If you’re going to claim credit for successes, then you must also accept responsibility for failures.


    [Bbn’s post #547 - “Here are Eddy’s latest views and comments.”]

    Thank you Bbn for pointing us to another clip of EC’s comments. In this clip, EC once again shows he is not out of touch with the game and technological advancements and his views make complete sense. He acknowledges the fast-changing technologies that can provide information with the push of a button. But you still need humans with the requisite experience to use the information. Accessing knowledge and information is no problem in today’s society. Anyone can do it. What is critical is how one uses the information. If you read it wrong, interpret it wrong or apply it wrongly, then you are just as good as being without the information and knowledge.

    I believe many of those who say EC’s views are of a past era and discount his opinions are merely using his age against him because deep down they know he is right but they do not or cannot admit it. They do not admit it or cannot admit it for I believe, a selfish reason- self-preservation. It does not take a genius to see that EC knows that because he speaks his mind with no holds barred, his views are unpopular with many, especially the established folks in Malaysian society. In the clip I cited in my earlier post and which chris-ccc was kind enough to put the link here at BC in his post #545, EC indicated that the VIPs were selected to head the administrations of sports organizations. VIPs who know nothing about coaching, etc. He says that with all due respect to the Tuankus and the Yang Berhormats, he doesn’t care. Clearly, EC’s frankness has offended many in Malaysian high society. But sometimes, the truth hurts. And others who may not be top administrators in national sports bodies are probably just “yes-men” who kiss ass for self-preservation, hence the continued ridicule of EC’s views and comments as being of a past era and not applicable. You cannot deny this when even the press are afraid to publish EC’s views and comments.


    [Bbn’s post #550- explanation of EC’s comments; and “... current CTC acting as reviewer... is only several months old and has seen LCW win the AE, Koo and Tan runner-up...”]

    I do not think EC’s comments were directed to the 70's, 80's and 90's only. They are as relevant today as they were then. After all, the two clips we have in this thread are fairly recent, around early or mid-2010 and late 2010. I believe I know Malaysia and Malaysians pretty well too and how they select leaders for national organizations is exactly as EC describes, i.e. VIPs and business leaders even if there are others more qualified to run them in terms of experience, knowledge and expertise in the particular field or sports. Such other more qualified persons are not selected to head the organization because their title is only “Mr.”, not “Tuanku” or “Datuk” or “Yang Berhormat”. Yes, there may be some notable former players in a particular sports national body, but they will ordinarily not hold high positions. That trend remains. And that is part of the problem.

    As to the CTC being only a recent addition and it has seen LCW victorious at the AE and Koo/Tan emerge runner-up, are you saying that the CTC has done a good job leading Malaysia to the singles victory and runner-up position in the AE? Because if you are, I am going to staunchly disagree with you. LCW’s victory and Koo/Tan’s strong showing at this year’s edition of the AE had nothing to do with the CTC. LCW won the AE last year too. More importantly, LCW’s victory had everything to do with the coaching he had under MS the past few years. Just because MS was not present at the tournament doesn’t mean all his coaching came to nought and that LCW’s success was attributable to something or someone else.

    Bottom line is that BAM’s administration’s meddling with the coaching staff is just their way of getting their hands into every cookie jar in BAM. That way, they can claim credit for success if success happens. What EC says about administration and coaching having to be separate is the correct approach and as long as BAM fails to see this, Malaysian badminton will never be a major force again in the world badminton scene. Sure, once in a long while, its players will enjoy some measure of success (like Hafiz Hashim winning the 2003 AE) but it will not be sustained success. Several other countries have caught up with or surpassed Malaysia’s former dominance in the sport.

    A national sports organization like BAM, in my not too humble opinion, is supposed to promote and strive for advancement of its sport in the country. Its responsibility is to provide the infra-structure and environment for the growth of the sport not just in quantity (more people to play the sport) but also in quality (development of players’ skills, etc.). For it to accomplish its purpose, it will have to do marketing, administer, fund-raise, get sponsors, procure services of competent coaches and other sports personnel, deal with the media, deal with broadcasting rights, develop good incentive schemes, do proper accounting and budgeting, etc. Once it has appointed coaches, let the coaches do their jobs without interference. A good leader recognizes his or her own limitations. A business leader must recognize he or she lacks credentials in coaching directly or indirectly, especially if he or she has not accomplished anything significant in the sport.

    If a business leader or other corporate type person heads the organization or holds another high position there, utilize his or her skills and experience to help the organization in some of the other areas I mentioned above, but do not stick your nose in where it does not belong. Management and administrators have plenty to do without getting into the coaches’ way.

    If BAM does its job properly and successfully, we should see it nurturing our young players and helping them to attain their maximum potential and continue their winning ways after their successes in the junior tournaments. Currently and for the past few years, our juniors make a big splash in the international scene in major junior tournaments, but after they move to the “big boys and girls” club, they hardly make a ripple. Eventually, they fade into obscurity. Will Malaysian badminton?
    I think I have already answered all the comments in my previous posts, perhaps it will explain.

    As for Eddy he is the father of Malaysian badminton, he is the greatest achiever as far as AE goes,but you cannot judge him just based on 2 videos. There are other interviews and videos which I have access to which prove that he is at times out of touch,maybe I will upload them in future.

  2. #563
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    I apologise for not reading posts that are too long, since most have been answered already but here's one or two :

    1) Where did you get the idea that administrators and managers are interfering with coaches?
    Isn't it the job of a chief coach to point out problems with training methods eg.player's legs are too weak?I would take that
    criticism as very constructive.
    2) A player or coach must be able to analyse wins or losses, as repeated whether a report needs to be written or
    not is just a method, you might as well discuss it in a round table, it doesn't matter as long as the analysis is done openly and recorded.
    3) Again i have to repeat the bit about stakeholders,transparency and a Quality System and the need for records,reports, in whatever form.
    A really good coach would want to record down his methods so that it can be read by posterity and there will be continuity so that others
    can follow up and no one is indispensable and can hold others to ransom.

    i think I am losing interest in this discussion and will leave at this point.

    My parting words would be, it is very easy for children to blame their parents for being inadequate, or executives to blame managers for not doing this and that, but one day when you are in the driver's seat you will understand the dilemmas of being in the driver's seat.
    Whatever I posted before your post are very basic management principles which can be read from any basic management texts, without
    that basic mindset it is pointless to continue, they are good practices applicable to any organisation producing goods and services except
    for IT or research projects which belong to the category of being open-ended, ie.no specific targets or budget etc.

    There are comments also from other pasts players made by Coronarsports,all of them have a common theme, its all
    down to the player's commitment. Most of what you argue about have already been discussed in previous posts and other threads long ago,maybe you could retrace them?

    By all means enjoy your stay here but I hope you keep an open mind.
    Last edited by Bbn; 03-31-2011 at 03:54 AM.

  3. #564
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    On 2nd thought I will leave you with a well known story about international Management :

    A Swedish Manager of Volvo was set to Malaysia to set up a car plant. In Sweden just like in Japan with their QCCs, managers and
    engineers write processes, its up to the group of workers to sort out amongst themselves how to divide the tasks as long as they produce say,
    2 cars a day.
    Now this Swedish manager tells the newly recruited workers to sort themselves out and complete the target, so some of these workers
    wait for each other, some take a tea break or religious break, some play computer games and some try to work, at the end of the day
    little gets done and targets are not met.The manager is baffled, monkeys he says, dont they have work ethics? In the end they had a meeting
    and the result was that in the local culture people need to be led and told what to do, they simply do not know how to work together and sort things out like Japanese or Scandinavians.So in Msia's Volvo. the workers have to be told what to do.

    If you cant understand the moral of the case, I give up. It is saying that 1) You have to be close to the action to understand real problems
    2) People are different everywhere. Idealism sounds OK but it may not be practicable because of situational and cultural factors.Also you understand problems better when you have been in a position of being in the leader's post.
    That is the best I can do.

  4. #565
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    LOL are you guys writing essays here? LOL... this is only a forum for killing spare time... why take it so seriously to write Harry Potter stories here? LOL... BOLEH?

  5. #566
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Ah,I did read some of your posts , that part about kissing assess and sucking up to VIPs

    is still true today but I think they can draw the line.As mentioned before we now have a National Sports Council

    Council which ensures that sports are run professionally, that's why we have, I repeat all these performance Directors and Coaches

    who are ex-players. The management kisses ass because they want government funding and probably pay rises and also answer to their GLC sponsors, maybe we can sack the government,the NSC, and also the GLC sponsors.

    There was a time in the past when politicians and outsiders could choose which player gets to play in the Thomas Cup etc.

    Nowadays the MS saga is a perfect example of politicians unable to leave matters alone but interfering.

    Etc.Etc. I would suggest you read all the postings form related threads etc. before you form conclusions, a lot of your

    claims are misdirected.

  6. #567
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    LOL are you guys writing essays here? LOL... this is only a forum for killing spare time... why take it so seriously to write Harry Potter stories here? LOL... BOLEH?
    no i'm not taking it seriously at all, if we can enlighten others and have the time why not?

    But only up to a point of course,boleh?

  7. #568
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    LOL are you guys writing essays here? LOL... this is only a forum for killing spare time... why take it so seriously to write Harry Potter stories here? LOL... BOLEH?
    Some of the essay I must say sure can get high marks if its an exam

    In fact I love reading some of them

  8. #569
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Badminton is 'more of an Art form'

    .
    I believe that I understand what Bbn and mafan mean.

    But when it comes to Badminton, I tend to agree with mafan.

    Why? Because Badminton is 'more of an Art form' (with less of the Science). To explain what I mean, I shall point out some activity of the 'Art form' (where little scientific knowledge are required);

    Boxing (Sugar Ray Leonard, Rocky Marciano, Muhammed Ali, etc, ...)
    Golfer (Gary Player, Tiger Wood, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, etc, ...)
    Music (Johann Sebastian Bach, Mozart, Ludwig van Beethoven, etc, ...)
    Painting (Leonardo da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Vincent Van Gogh, etc, ...)
    etc, etc, ......

    Science has very little to do to help the above persons to become great in their chosen profession.

    OK, let's return to professional Badminton players. Yes, Science does help (like how to improve strength, to move quicker, better diet, psychology, etc, ...), but it's their Art/Skill of performing their strokes/actions that plays the more important part.

    Bbn is telling us that it's better for coaches to write reports in order to analyse what went right or wrong. This is more of a Scientific method.

    Whereas, mafan is telling us it's better for coaches to show and tell what is right or wrong (no need to write reports for the Association/Body involved).
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 03-31-2011 at 08:18 AM.

  9. #570
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    A few hours left. Time to see if all the words spoken by the managers and directors and chairmen meant anything at all, or if their mouth has gone south.

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    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
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    Yes let's see what they have in their menu

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    Knock... knock... knock... what is the outcome? Stay or go? BOLEH?

  12. #573
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Sheesh, I've repeated myself for the umpteenth time, writing reports is one way of doing an analysis, there are alternatives such as
    informal discussions,interviews,brainstorming sessions etc, doesn't matter how its done, so long as the analysis is carried out.

    Reason why there is so many reports to be done (in whatever form) is because of the current requirement in many places to have a Quality System in many operations for the purpose of accountability and transparency and probably because financiers demand it.It is a basic requirement in many countries to have a Quality System to attain a competitive edge.

    As mentioned before, it is not a question of filing a report, that is only a technicality,the answer is obvious when LCW casually asked the juniors why they won or lost and they had no answer, let alone write a report.

    Writing reports are good, it facilitates desemination of knowledge and information,what would the world be if people did not write books.
    Of course who likes to do paperwork? It is not a question of Art and Science.

    If it is difficult for people to file reports and there have to be written records, they can always fill in questionnaires, forms etc, just tick yes or no .agree.disagree etc etc. Nothing is impossible .its a question of whether both sides are sincere in making something work, and the main requirement is the ability to think out of the box.

    I am not supporting the BAM or whatever just trying to explain the rationale for their behaviour, it may be right or wrong or the implementation ought to be a lot more flexible.

    Tan Kim Her and Rexy seem fairly comfortable people they are well traveled and have worked in many places where such practices are common. In many places all these QS have become a norm and people have to leave their comfort zones, be educated to get used to it
    or be left behind.

  13. #574
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Of course its very mean to ask someone who is barely literate to write a report.

    But if you think again here if you cannot write a report or fill in the form in a government department because you are illiterate you'll

    probably be advised to return to the land of your ancestors.

    Or you want to do a bank transaction, the teller will not serve you but will ask you to use the deposit machine or ATM at the back and give you forms to fill, not because the bank is not customer friendly but because it is a government directive.

    This means if you dont develop the culture of written/language skills or even computer skills, you are not going to get much help or any sympathy.

    As mentioned before it is culture-centric and situational, you have to understand the context and purpose of certain practices.And people in responsible positions are expected to set a good example for others to follow.

    It is obvious whether filling a report or not will improve badminton but you have to see the big picture.

    Maybe you understand now the meaning of "Boleh?"
    Last edited by Bbn; 04-01-2011 at 12:25 AM.

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    -----------------------------------------------------------

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    you repeated it twice again one more time haha haha (repetitive element in this sentence done on purpose)

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    Repeat twice again? That will be more than twice because of the 'again'

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    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Knock... knock... knock... what is the outcome? Stay or go? BOLEH?
    Shhhh! Don't disturb! If disturbed and wrong outcome, then for many people, no income!

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