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04-01-2011, 12:47 AM #579
Still Holding Out For Misbun, Breath Abated
Hey Jimbo, here’s another “essay” for you. pBmMalaysia, I hope you “... love reading some...” of this too! (I don’t care about the marks) By the way, Jimbo, yes, this is to kill spare time. I like my fun activities to be somewhat cerebral sometimes and this is one of those times because I am a fan of Malaysian badminton, LCW and MS and if I can stand up for them, I will even if it all falls on deaf ears (or blind eyes). I seldom post here because I do not have that much time to do so but I made some time these past few days.
[Bbn’s post #562 - (referring to Eddy Choong) “There are other interviews and videos which I have access to which prove that he is at times out of touch, maybe I will upload them in future.”]
Yes, please do Bbn. Let us BCers decide for ourselves if he is indeed out of touch. I for one, cannot take your word for it. Not because you are not a trustworthy person, only because you and I see things from a different angle. So if you are going to proclaim someone is out of touch, especially a badminton legend, I hope you will furnish the clips. In fact, I am surprised there are not more clips of EC or other local badminton aces floating around on BC giving their opinions. Maybe I have not found them. If anyone knows where other clips are on BC or anywhere else, please share. But Bbn, even if there are other clips of EC’s views around on other issues concerning badminton, the two clips we have seen on this thread are relevant ones because they address the issue of the administration interfering with coaches’ work.
Nevertheless, my opinions in my posts are not based on EC’s views. I independently reached my views and then found that EC also felt the way I did. If the clips of EC revealed that he subscribed to a different position, he would not have persuaded me otherwise. My position would have remained unchanged. Since I came across his video clip, I just thought I’d share it with you guys to support the views I held in my post because I am a nobody while he is a badminton legend who should know what he is talking about (and does!). I just wanted to point you guys to the real expert who has really been there and done that!
[Bbn’s post #563 - “I apologize for not reading posts that are too long, since most have been answered already...”]
No apologies needed. But that’s too bad that you don’t read the complete post before responding. I read each post completely before responding, no matter the length. It’s just me... I’m anal that way. So if you want to write a thesis instead of just an essay, I promise you I will read it before I respond ... if I do respond.
As to your other queries:
1. I got the idea that administrators and managers are interfering with coaches the same way you got the idea that administrators and managers are not interfering with coaches - from reading abundantly over a period of years about the subject matter from the media and BC and my understanding of the local Malaysian culture. It’s just that we read the same things but came to different conclusions.
Let me just give you two examples out of the numerous items I read - Pakito’s post #538 in this thread and Undeadshot’s post #430 in the “Misbun Quits As National Singles Coach” thread.
2. My response to this second query is to quote you - “I think I have already answered ... in my previous posts...”
3. A coach does not sell a product. A coach sells services. A coach’s knowledge, skills, acumen, methods, ability and manner of imparting his knowledge and skills are his bread and butter. You are absolutely right that no one is indispensable. You are also absolutely right that no one should hold others to ransom. But to demand that a coach “record down his methods so that it can be read by posterity and there will be continuity so that others can follow up and no one is indispensable and can hold others to ransom” is utter nonsense. If BAM thinks Misbun Sidek is getting a big head and thinks he is indispensable, BAM can fire him for his attitude or whatever reason BAM wishes to cite. If BAM thinks MS is trying to hold BAM to ransom, BAM can fire him too. But BAM has no right to require MS to write down his methods for posterity, continuity or any other reason. In fact, this issue has also been “already answered... in my previous posts...” MS’s knowledge and coaching skills and methods belong to him. Do you think any great coach will want to coach for BAM if such coach is required to reduce to writing his knowledge and methods so that potentially he can be terminated and someone cheaper hired to take over using his “coaching manual”? If MS wishes to write about his coaching for posterity it should be up to him and on his own terms. But let’s not forget his son Ramdan is also a badminton player and no one knows yet what level of accomplishment he will achieve. If he surpasses his father, he may be a coach in the future and MS has every right to pass his coaching “secrets” to his son then, not now to BAM.
If you are losing interest, then leave, as you said. I have noticed that you do this whenever someone engages you in a spirited discussion. And I have also noticed you get upset somewhat easily. Take for example pjswift’s post #160 in response to your post # 154 and #155 in this thread. You were clearly being very sarcastic and pjswift just told you to stop being “silly” and you got mad at him in your post # 161 and 163. I saw nothing wrong with his response at all. When folks have a heated discussion and there are differing points of view, words like that or similar ones will be used. As long as there are no threats and no foul language, all is good.
“My parting words would be, it is very easy for children to blame their parents for being inadequate, or executives to blame managers for not doing this and that, but one day when you are in the driver’s seat you will understand the dilemmas of being in the driver’s seat.”
Exactly. It is also easy for parents to blame their children when parents fail to do a good parental job. And correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t there also a lot of discussion in this thread and others about how BAM likes to blame others, e.g. coaches and players? Isn’t this kind of like the executives (higher ups) blaming managers (subordinates)?
And, what makes you think I am not in the driver’s seat now?
“Whatever I posted before your post are very basic management principles which can be read from any basic management texts, without that basic mindset it is pointless to continue, they are good practices applicable to any organization producing goods and services except for IT or research projects which belong to the category of being open-ended, i.e. no specific targets or budget etc.”
Oh, OK, so I am ignorant of basic management principles and thus unqualified to engage you in a spirited discussion about a simple issue regarding badminton, i.e. whether coaches should be left alone to perform their jobs without interference. How many times have we had dinner together as pals that you know I have not read about management principles?
Let me assure you my good friend, that I attended business school and have read “basic management texts” and then some. I just never told you about that over the numerous meals we shared together. I am also aware of management case studies that you like to mention (e.g. your post #564), maybe just not the same ones. And I suppose then, according to your management case study in post #564, that if the workers produced four cars a day instead of the two that management had targeted for them, that management would then have to interfere and tell the workers what to do and not show appreciation for the fine job that the workers were doing?
Yes, I understand the moral of your case study. Do you understand mine?
Now that I have jumped to your post #564, you say there that “Idealism sounds OK but it may not be practicable because of situational and cultural factors”. Exactly. So when are you going to get off that management principles idealism and start being practical? Once again, it is amazing how we agree on something but draw completely different conclusions.
“Also you understand problems better when you have been in a position of being in the leader’s post”. And again, what makes you think I have not been a leader or is not currently a leader? My friend, there is so much I did not tell you over our meals together.
And you know what, despite my quite enlightened position about management principles, I still think your position that such management principles are substantially applicable to the matter that is being discussed is misguided. And let’s just leave it at that. “That is the best I can do” (Your post #564) I am sorry you have done your best but have failed to convince me.
[“There are comments... it’s all down to the player’s commitment.”] [Bbn’s post #563]
Once again, exactly! If you read my posts completely, you would know that I credit LCW’s and MS’s hard work, dedication and commitment for LCW’s successes in tournaments. Not BAM. Isn’t it wonderful how we read the same things and agree on those things but draw completely different conclusions from them? I have always believed that even with the greatest coach, a lazy, undedicated and uncommitted player would not achieve anything of significance, let alone his maximum potential. I also opined (as did many BCers too) that BAM did not appreciate the hard work that MS and LCW have put in and the many tournaments they have won together. That was the reason I participated in this thread. My first post here was to encourage the maverick MS to stand firm in his position with BAM and if he did not return to BAM, to continue his good work for Malaysian badminton outside of BAM (since I was afraid he would retire as he indicated he would do). That post, incidentally has disappeared from this thread so I am wondering if BC has started to censor even when a post was previously approved for posting. Bbn, I took up your suggestion to read the previous posts, etc. and discovered my first post here missing today. If anyone has an explanation for why that post has been deleted, I would appreciate hearing it. Otherwise, I shall just read only and may no longer participate as that would be a waste of time if I am going to be censored after publication without being told what I did wrong, if anything at all.
By the way, Bbn, you misquoted what this thread was about in your post #551 when you said that the title of this thread was that “Misbun should prove that he can strike out on his own.” I think there is a big difference between the correct title and the title you stated. MS does not need to prove anything to anyone because he has already shown us what he is capable of, i.e. guiding LCW to be the number one ranked player in the world since late 2008 and the “winningest” Super Series player, and a repeating AE champion. Only problem is that BAM does not seem to appreciate his and MS’s efforts and accomplishments. Perhaps never, unless LCW wins the Olympic gold. BAM fails to recognize that LCW is playing in an era where his arch rival Lin Dan is arguably the greatest player the sport has ever seen. So, despite a losing head-to-head record against LD in finals of tournaments, it is impressive that LCW has chalked up the victories that he has. This thread arose because chris-ccc did not the appreciate the calls to fire MS and RS in another thread after LCW lost a match. My understanding of chris-ccc’s motivation in starting this thread was to tell MS to work for Malaysian badminton outside of BAM since he was not being appreciated at BAM.
Your incorrect labeling of this thread, on the other hand, appears to be a challenge to MS to prove that he can be as successful a coach without BAM and/or LCW. The underlying premise then, is that MS is not a good coach and LCW’s successes is only due to LCW’s dedication and hard work and/or BAM’s policies, but not MS’s guidance. That, I believe, is showing disrespect to MS and not appreciating all that he has done for Malaysian badminton.
And while we’re talking about your post # 551, I am puzzled about your placing the link to the “continuous learning and improvement” article in that post and how it might advance your position in this thread. And yes, I do know the meaning of the corporate buzzword “continuous learning”. At first, when I read the article, I thought you and I held similar beliefs about BAM and the issue in this thread. Of course, now I know better. But anyway, thank you for pointing the article out and your ongoing mention of the concept of “continuous learning” in your other posts because I think it helps me make my point.
How? Well, first of all, I did not think the article had anything to do about the concept of “continuous learning”. The fact that you saw it in there is quite telling. It reveals a bias on your part to all the theoretical management principles and corporate structure, etc. You love quoting all these terms of art, even when there is none present, as in this article. Even conceptually, the article had nothing to do with “continuous learning”. It was just about potential shortcomings in the Malaysian education system which the authorities may not recognize exist.
I actually thought you were using that article to analogize and show us that those in positions of authority in Malaysia (read “BAM administration”) were not aware of weaknesses in its system and did not know if Malaysian badminton was heading towards a wrong direction. I got this from the sixth paragraph when the writer states that “Most importantly, we must be aware of our own weaknesses and reflect on whether our education system is heading towards a wrong direction.” And then in the third to last paragraph, the writer writes that “... when the Universiti Malaya (UM) dropped from 180 to 207 in the prestigious 2010 QS World University Rankings, our ministers said that the fall in the world university rankings should not be taken as the only yardstick to assess local university quality”. The writer then follows that up in the next paragraph with “... even we have been going backward, we still ‘remain calm’ and blindly looking for excuses for our failure”. Sound familiar?
And speaking of “continuous learning”, you seem to think that it is only MS that needs to do it. Well, I think BAM management should also be doing it.
I have a heck of a lot more to say but I will not do so. I’ll spare your eyes.
Final word for now is that no matter what the outcome, MS will be OK. So will LCW, with or without MS because I believe MS has taught LCW enough that he will not crumble when MS is not around. That’s one of the hallmarks of a good coach. Of course, I would feel better about LCW’s chances for OG gold if MS was still around to guide him, but that’s beyond our control. And also, no matter what the outcome, I will be OK and so will Bbn. And life will go on.
04-01-2011, 12:56 AM #580
That is the most common mistake people make. Repeat, means say again, and repeat again is double. When using repeat, no need to use the "again"
04-01-2011, 01:16 AM #581
LOL another long essay... let's see how long will it (long essay) lasts... BOLEH
04-01-2011, 01:17 AM #582
04-01-2011, 01:22 AM #583
Sorry no patience to read your essay.
As far as Eddy is concerned he is a legend and great achiever. But no one is perfect, between the time when he dissociated
himself from BAM and now, there have been a lot of achievements without him, it is not as if the country cannot survive without him (and that applies to everyone else).
In case you dont know Eddy built a hall in Bukit Dumbar in Penang at his own expense and has been training Penang youngsters for decades.
04-01-2011, 01:31 AM #584
04-01-2011, 01:50 AM #585
Mafan, here is a question for you:
Which types of people would be the ones whose agenda and interest is to institutionalize knowledge or craft?
What exactly do these people have to offer in terms of advancement of the human race?
Just because books on a shelf rest between bookends, can we then say that bookends are repositories of knowledge?
I look forward to your answer.
04-01-2011, 02:22 AM #586
As to your question, the answer should be available at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/revert+back
04-01-2011, 05:29 AM #587
When I mentioned "Badminton is 'more of an Art form' (with less of the Science)", I was thinking along these lines;
* Art = A high quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; a view often manifested by outward appearances or style of behavior.
* Science = A systematic study based on observation, experiment, and measurement.
I did not say that Science won't help. In fact I did mention that Science does help (like how to improve strength, to move quicker, better diet, psychology, etc, ...).
However, I find that the Art of playing 'Good Badminton' plays the more important part. It is the conscious production movements that makes a good Badminton player.
I brought this topic into our discussion because I thought that you were telling us that it's good to have an understanding of why a training method is great or not via writing reports.
I was think the other way; Spend less time in writing report, spend more time in training on court.
Last edited by chris-ccc; 04-01-2011 at 05:32 AM.
04-01-2011, 05:57 AM #588
Hot from oven... the verdict is out... Misbun decided to stay n guide LCW till OG2012, and on top of that, TXH (Tang Xian Hu, the coach for Lin Dan) has decided to join Misbun to co-guide LCW to fulfill his Olympic GOLD dream, as well as the 22million BOLEH dreams...
wake up lah... today is April Fool...
04-01-2011, 06:02 AM #589
I actually believed it, but the bit about Tang Xian Hu kinda made me suspicious.
04-01-2011, 08:24 AM #590
Just read on tv news headlines... BAM offered MS a new contract... still waiting the full news
Btw, my vote goes to no reports from coaches, instead the CTC should write 'em down. Period. *sigh* That also need to teach, meh? Common sense la...
Last edited by eRa@에라; 04-01-2011 at 08:27 AM.
04-01-2011, 08:47 AM #591
MS will be back.. he retracted his resignation by hand to Nadzmi four days ago. Good news finally... ^^
04-01-2011, 09:11 AM #592
dang... I tot misbun is marrying lcw soon.. lol. Jimbo beat me to it.. lol
I see a longest essay writing competion. lol.
04-01-2011, 09:58 AM #593
So now in the ctc, who are going to go out when misbun comes back?
If, quietly pretend nothing happens, then those are truly boleh .....
Last edited by pBmMalaysia; 04-01-2011 at 10:00 AM.
04-01-2011, 10:25 AM #594
As for reports from the coaches, i am sure most coaches do provide that
but if there are to be so detail why don't the ctc or nsc themselves take turn,
visit the training sessions and write all they want. They can even double mafan's post, who cares
Rather than sitting like think tank when it's empty tank most of them
Btw, if I am not wrong the issue of report writing is not that big
It's how they demand them, especially after some players lost.
There wasn't any respect given even to misbun
Instead of requesting the reports, they demanded for them every time
And lastly, never congratulate the players when they win
Last edited by pBmMalaysia; 04-01-2011 at 10:31 AM.
04-01-2011, 10:56 AM #595
Misbun Returns To BAM
Yes, just found this news;
Misbun Returns To BAM
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