User Tag List

Page 45 of 57 FirstFirst ... 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 LastLast
Results 749 to 765 of 968
  1. #749
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Which leads to the role of a Performance coach, to evaluate and study in detail

    each coaches training methods and measures charges' performance and then decide independently

    shortfalls in coaching strategies and then assign players to a corre t coach to rectify.

    Without all these monitoring and facts and figures each coach will be arguing till the cows come home, an independent evaluator will

    be able to identify and decide on remedial actions required. Of course all these have to be done professionally and objectively.

  2. #750
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    26,739
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Arrow To me, KPI measures quantity; and quality is difficult to be measured by it

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Which leads to the role of a Performance coach, to evaluate and study in detail each coaches training methods and measures charges' performance and then decide independently shortfalls in coaching strategies and then assign players to a correct coach to rectify.

    Without all these monitoring and facts and figures each coach will be arguing till the cows come home, an independent evaluator will be able to identify and decide on remedial actions required. Of course all these have to be done professionally and objectively.
    .
    Regarding monitoring by an independent evaluator, I will have to say that he/she will do it subjectively. If done objectively, we need to only record their statistical results, and there is no need for an independent evaluator.

    Yes, I have been involved in this type of statistical analysis for my departmental staff before (when I headed my department as the manager). IMHO, it's a waste of time, checking on things like;

    * How fast they can type
    * How many documents they can process in an hour
    * How much time they spend on the phone
    * etc, etc, ......

    The bottom line is really based on the quality of their work and how they functioned well to solve problems. So, back to Badminton, it's not how much load (of work) a player is capable to perform, but the quality (of work) that a player manages to achieve.

    To me, KPI measures quantity; Quality is difficult to be measured by it.
    .

  3. #751
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    8,669
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Errrr, Chris, KPI does not necessarily have to be associated with quantifiable values. In the case of badminton players for example, one of the key indicators could be the ability to perform consistently under pressure. The pressure could be psychological (a stronger or more prpared opponent, the scores in the opponent's favour, the history of earlier encounters in the opponent's favour etc) and the indicator could well be how the player performs.

    Does his game go all to hell? Does he fall apart? Does he attempt to raise his game? Can he maintain his composure? How has he performed under similar conditions over the past 12 or 24 months? Is there a trend that can be graphed?

    This information can be used to make assessments of strengths and weaknesses, and the coaching and support staff can then work out a strategy to rectify or change any areas of weakness.

    We all use KPI is some way or other in our daily lives. The danger of promoting KPI and other supposedly "corporate gimmicks" is that the implementation or approach can be very easily flawed, or over-dependant, or conveniently skewed (remember Disraeli's famous quote about lies, damned lies and statistics? ) or mis-represented, or just badly designed. All these are very real possibilities, and they are responsible for unfavourable or inconsistent results.

    My personal opinion is that adopting corporate attitudes in a structure like BAM is counter-productive, because there is very apparently too much vested interest from various groups. Any sterile policy will be hijacked under such circumstances, before you can make a telephone call for help. Eventually, it is also about accountability and responsibility. It is about stepping up to the plate and taking ownership of actions and results.

    I have many other thoughts and opinions on this subject, but I also recognize that a lot if it is futile because eventually, people will only believe what they want to believe. So why waste my time?

  4. #752
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Regarding monitoring by an independent evaluator, I will have to say that he/she will do it subjectively. If done objectively, we need to only record their statistical results, and there is no need for an independent evaluator.

    Yes, I have been involved in this type of statistical analysis for my departmental staff before (when I headed my department as the manager). IMHO, it's a waste of time, checking on things like;

    * How fast they can type
    * How many documents they can process in an hour
    * How much time they spend on the phone
    * etc, etc, ......

    The bottom line is really based on the quality of their work and how they functioned well to solve problems. So, back to Badminton, it's not how much load (of work) a player is capable to perform, but the quality (of work) that a player manages to achieve.

    To me, KPI measures quantity; Quality is difficult to be measured by it.
    .
    To Chris :
    KPI does not only measure quantity it can also measure quality.Your personal experience is based on measuring quantity.You probably have not experienced other types using scaling such as good,average, poor etc.etc.
    Data feedback is used in operations and engineering to make decisions ,it is not talking about KPI, it is about using facts and figures to help decision makers to make the best decision for eg. whether enough hours are assigned to certain tasks eg. not enough hours on physical training, too much in gym. Repeat, it is not all about KPI paranoia, it is an operations and engineering concept used in industries to make comparisons so as to make decisions. Other names they go by are : Operations Research,
    Decision Science, Quantitative Techniques,Operations Management etc. They are probably found in Wiki too and can be used to enhance the performance of many operations and make decisions and choices. .There is probably a course in Melbourne U dedicated to it.
    Last edited by Bbn; 04-19-2011 at 06:07 PM.

  5. #753
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_research

    Here's a link, another name it goes by is Management Science. It can cover things like Optimising how many players to a coach,
    scheduling of events etc.etc. and is an on going developing science. It does not make decisions, it provides feedback to help make decisions,
    it is not about KPI statistics,that is something else.All managers use it to some extent to help in decision making and may be done with computer modeling.Not popular though with people uncomfortable with mathematics.Probably used a lot in football .It is not rocket science but woe to this world if not for this area of knowledge.

    This is not a personal attack on anyone,(I dont resort to such), it is up to readers to decide on the credibility of posters eg. the quality of the information posted instead of the quantity.
    Last edited by Bbn; 04-19-2011 at 06:25 PM.

  6. #754
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Which leads to the role of a Performance coach, to evaluate and study in detail

    each coaches training methods and measures charges' performance and then decide independently

    shortfalls in coaching strategies and then assign players to a corre t coach to rectify.

    Without all these monitoring and facts and figures each coach will be arguing till the cows come home, an independent evaluator will

    be able to identify and decide on remedial actions required. Of course all these have to be done professionally and objectively.
    Does this mention anything about KPIs? It is about optimising training methods and resources.

  7. #755
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    Not true, in many industries such as fast food, car assembly etc. all workers need to record work processes for continuity or reference.the problem starts when the workers are not educated or literate enough to be able to write records or proposals, other alternatives should be acceptable.Countries in EU or USA where 80 % of workforce are U graduates can enforce this, problem is in Msia where only 30 % are graduates it takes time to enforce, especially with older workers giving a lot of problem as they may not even know how to use a computer. Onus is on you to reeducate.
    That's why Msia is emphasising on higher education to move up the value chain.
    You join Mazda or Mercedes on day 1 and no one tells you what to do, you are given a work manual and guidelines to start work on your own.
    We should not be afraid to post anything on whoever as we have no vested interests, in the interests of transparency,we should not hide what are facts and disclose only what we want others to hear, that is very biased and unethical.it also gives yourself more credibilty.
    this is also talking about enhancing operations and not about KPIs. I think there is some kind of paranoia here and people with TUNNEL VISION are unable to think out of the box.I think MS can understand it already.
    Phew,this exhausting!I have to take a long break.
    Last edited by Bbn; 04-19-2011 at 06:40 PM.

  8. #756
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    KPI as used here is a tool used to evaluate the performance of an individual eg whether targets are made at the end of a certain period.

    It is probably a Corporate tool.

    Operations Management or Engineering however is not KPI ,it is using feedback and data to optimise processes for better value and to solve problems eg.bottlenecks. It is interactive, requires the participation of the facilitator and at the end of the day if the system fails, it is mainly the designer who is responsible not the participants who work along the system.

    A performance coach needs all these data to establish which area needs remedial action or re-assignment of resources to enhance performance, that is called COORDINATION. A performance coach who can only perform KPIs and cannot improve a system should be re-assigned as a human resource executive.

    Loh can probably explain better by cutting the jargon and use badminton terms to illustrate the principles.

    This is as far as I go, and the best I can do, for Chris's benefit, I wont respond to further baiting from the trolls .
    Last edited by Bbn; 04-19-2011 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #757
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    26,739
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Thumbs down Adopting corporate attitudes in a structure like BAM is counter-productive

    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Errrr, Chris, KPI does not necessarily have to be associated with quantifiable values. In the case of badminton players for example, one of the key indicators could be the ability to perform consistently under pressure. The pressure could be psychological (a stronger or more prpared opponent, the scores in the opponent's favour, the history of earlier encounters in the opponent's favour etc) and the indicator could well be how the player performs.

    Does his game go all to hell? Does he fall apart? Does he attempt to raise his game? Can he maintain his composure? How has he performed under similar conditions over the past 12 or 24 months? Is there a trend that can be graphed?


    This information can be used to make assessments of strengths and weaknesses, and the coaching and support staff can then work out a strategy to rectify or change any areas of weakness.

    We all use KPI is some way or other in our daily lives. The danger of promoting KPI and other supposedly "corporate gimmicks" is that the implementation or approach can be very easily flawed, or over-dependant, or conveniently skewed (remember Disraeli's famous quote about lies, damned lies and statistics? ) or mis-represented, or just badly designed. All these are very real possibilities, and they are responsible for unfavourable or inconsistent results.

    My personal opinion is that adopting corporate attitudes in a structure like BAM is counter-productive, because there is very apparently too much vested interest from various groups. Any sterile policy will be hijacked under such circumstances, before you can make a telephone call for help. Eventually, it is also about accountability and responsibility. It is about stepping up to the plate and taking ownership of actions and results.

    I have many other thoughts and opinions on this subject, but I also recognize that a lot if it is futile because eventually, people will only believe what they want to believe. So why waste my time?
    .
    For me, the Key Performance Indicators are quantifiable measurements. Even when you talk about "the ability to perform consistently under pressure", we still need to attach a number to it to give some measurement, for example;

    * 10 points = Never say die attitude.
    * ............
    * 5 points = Average fighting spirit.
    * ............
    * 1 point = Giving up easily when under pressure.

    And I agree with your view that "...... adopting corporate attitudes in a structure like BAM is counter-productive, because there is very apparently too much vested interest from various groups".
    .

  10. #758
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Actually some time back Misbun did mention that the back-up muskeeters(now elite) could not last under his tough training. Rashid one time said they could not last thru the 1.5 hours of training, by 1 hr, huff puff. And that's under Rashid's 'lighter' prog.
    Only those who could like CKB continued to train under Misbun. Oops, CKB also was chased out of training hall by Misbun once
    Look at the statement above.

    It is an example of Management science in action.

    Say the chief coach has the info that R is only requiring 1 hr training,whilst M is providing 1.5 hours , does it mean that R is not performing in KPI whilst M is? What if both R & M's charges are not performing 1 or 2 hours is there sth else missing, not enough Gym, not enough tactics?
    With all these data a or several menus can be designed targeting minimum requirements for training,gym ,tactics etc. etc and monitored.
    They can even be modified to suit each trainee. It all requires feedback and data from coaches so that the coordinator can identify problems and suggest remedies.
    I am sure it can be useful to coaches (not schoolboy armchair critics). it is a way of using feedback and data to create solutions and solve problems in many facets of life.
    KPI though is another matter, if the system is not properly coordinated then the chief bears the brunt of the KPI because he may be incompetent.

  11. #759
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    26,739
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Arrow When a KPI study is used on machines/equipment, the results are usually correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    To Chris :
    KPI does not only measure quantity it can also measure quality. Your personal experience is based on measuring quantity. You probably have not experienced other types using scaling such as good, average, poor, etc, etc.
    .
    Well, I have commented on this matter in Post #757.

    I have experienced different types of KPI analysis on people before.

    IMHO, it can produce wrong conclusions when studying people. However, when a KPI study is used on machines/equipment, the results are usually correct. But people are not machines.

    Tell you how some people could react (opposite effects) when a KPI study is placed on them. I shall simplify into 2 categories;

    (1) Some will perform better - They know they are being watch. They love the attention they get.
    (2) Some will get nervous and worry sets in - When they worry, their work rate always go downhill.

    In my coaching approach, I would rather give encouragement and confidence to my trainees. Forget about the KPI; because I do not want my trainees to be in fear of Category (2).
    .

  12. #760
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well since you are talking about KPI and not Om or DC, I dont like KPI either.

    But I think it is for want of sth better otherwise people can abuse rewards and promotions like using blood relations

    to influence the boss like those James Bond girls.

    In my opinion people who follow the KPI strictly are morons, it is at best a guiding tool for want of a better or more reliable one, and most

    of all must be continuously improved to iron out flaws and loopholes. If one works blindly to fit KPIs most organisations will be paralysed.

    KPIs are probably used by HR for certain minimum evaluations, in the final analysis smart organisations will allow the immediate superior to override the flaws of the KPI. The ends justify the means, KPI reflects only one visible area of the means.

  13. #761
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    8,669
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Chris: the corporate approach does not recognize love or encouragement. It only recognizes performance and reward. How you manage to perform is your problem. You are provided the parameters. Sink or swim. However in most workplaces the corporate approach does use another tactic: the fear of punishment.

    The corporate approach can be useful in workplaces where human resources can be constantly replaced if required.

    A badminton association OTOH would need to function as a close-knit, dynamic, supportive community. This approach provides players and coaches, support staff and even management with a sense of belonging and goodwill. Everyone would willingly bend his back to the task. This approach however also requires everyone to work in a mature and sensible, and responsible manner. That would mean leaving politics out of the equation. Oops! Sorry! I guess this approach is not for BAM, then! Bring on the corporate approach!

  14. #762
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Well, I have commented on this matter in Post #757.

    I have experienced different types of KPI analysis on people before.

    IMHO, it can produce wrong conclusions when studying people. However, when a KPI study is used on machines/equipment, the results are usually correct. But people are not machines.

    Tell you how some people could react (opposite effects) when a KPI study is placed on them. I shall simplify into 2 categories;

    (1) Some will perform better - They know they are being watch. They love the attention they get.
    (2) Some will get nervous and worry sets in - When they worry, their work rate always go downhill.

    In my coaching approach, I would rather give encouragement and confidence to my trainees. Forget about the KPI; because I do not want my trainees to be in fear of Category (2).
    .
    30 years ago in the BAM before there was such thing as Performance Evaluation all decisions was the prerogative of one man, a dictator.

    A promising star like Bernard Lee,the national champion was kicked out because the Chief thought he had no future.Then a doubles player called Ong Teong Boon was dropped in favour of James Selvaraj because the chief had a hunch James was better.

    The two victims had no avenues to appeal and the judgement of the Chief cannot be challenged. Fast forward 30 years, Chris and tell me
    if you prefer the old whim and fancy way, the new way or a balance.Gaddafi and Mubarak will support the old way!

    But now we are using past references to the BAM, has BAM made no progress in 30 years? Do you know enough about the BAM?

  15. #763
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    3,004
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    And I forgot to add to add, the public knew that the real reason why they were dropped was because

    they didn't know how to please the boss and suck up to him. So case closed because of lack of a transparent process.

  16. #764
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    26,739
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Thumbs down Lack of a transparent process

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    And I forgot to add to add, the public knew that the real reason why they were dropped was because they didn't know how to please the boss and suck up to him. So case closed because of lack of a transparent process.
    .
    Even today, there is a lack of transparent process.
    .

  17. #765
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    12,014
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Haiseh, even in the corporate sector, KPI, performance appraisal, etc,etc is subject to politics, politics & more politics. Even if one's results is very good, successful, so what. The boss can say it's not good enough, just cos the person is not a yes-man or same wavelength as the boss. Standard politics lah.

    To cut super long story short, scroll back & read what LCW said when Misbun's resignation 1st came public. + what Misbun said in the weeks bf he tender resignation.

    If the CTC want to do things their way, might as well they come down to the ground & do it themself. AND bear the responsibility instead of the coach having to bear it.
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 04-21-2011 at 11:03 AM.

Similar Threads

  1. Misbun Sidek, a great player?
    By sonnymak in forum Malaysia Professional Players
    Replies: 106
    : 04-05-2012, 01:05 AM
  2. Misbun Sidek's club
    By B3nny H4nn4 in forum Malaysia
    Replies: 404
    : 12-22-2011, 09:22 AM
  3. Misbun Sidek Sickness...
    By izzudin in forum Malaysia Professional Players
    Replies: 13
    : 01-01-2009, 09:17 AM
  4. misbun sidek-help!!!
    By Anil Kishore in forum Malaysia
    Replies: 33
    : 09-23-2008, 11:14 PM
  5. New Misbun Sidek racquet
    By marshall in forum Badminton Rackets / Equipment
    Replies: 16
    : 10-27-2002, 06:26 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •