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  1. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Most umpire would warn the players by saying "Play on, Play on".

    If them players do not, probably a warning card should be shown to them.
    .
    Yes, there will usually be a verbal warning before action is taken.

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    Default how long can one take to serve? - as long as it is not unfair

    Quote Originally Posted by raceto21 View Post
    any updates to this question? people still agree its still "just" 5-7 seconds? varying your initial service stroke can be an effective strategy in controlling the pace of the game.
    Ah, you are reviving a dormant thread!

    The astute readers appear not to be in agreement for any given number for the time, and it has also been mentioned that this is also umpire related. All this may be true.

    It is not entirely up to the umpire, it is up to the players; the umpire just gets an idea about what is going to bother one player or the other.

    Just think, or if not, check out some videos, to get an idea of this time. If I were to inquire, how many seconds elapse from when the shuttle is dead to when the shuttle is actually put in play, what would you say?

    Methinks, the answer to this query in this thread is that the actual time depends on the game and the match situation. And the fellow in the high chair has to keep his fingers on the pulse and make certain there is no unfair practice used by players.

    There will be times in a game, when after a particularly all-court battle, lets say in a mens singles, that both players are behaving like a fish, you know, gasping for air and all. At this time, any good umpire will not force the issue.

    There will be a time during the same game, when one player is ready to serve (or receive) and the opponent is not. Now, this becomes a tactical ploy. This is unfair means, so the arbitrator steps in. "Play," is all the instruction the player will need to re-focus, and usually this does the trick.

    Some players, especially in singles, both in mens and womens circuit, take anywhere between 13 to 21 seconds between when the shuttle is dead and when it is put in play.

    They also take a scenic tour of their court, starting from the umpire-side sideline, toward the coach/baseline, then to the service judge side sideline, then pick up shuttle, then take the sweat off the brow and face, then ask for a shuttle change. Some of the time, the scenic tour taken by one player may be counter clockwise direction, the opponent clockwise. Is this what the spectators came to see? The short answer is, they came to see the player play at his/her very best level and execute some deft net-play, softest of net-tumblers, loopy rainbows, searing smashes down the sidelines, and crisp drops in open court. Is this fair to the spectators who paid enormous monies and are spending their time?

    I know one umpire who had faulted a mens doubles team for undue delay when he took 7 seconds to deliver the serve. This was before the interval in the opening game. This same player was serving between 3 and 4 seconds in the beginning. Guess what happened for the rest of that match? There were no more funny business from his team.
    Last edited by 2wheels04; 01-11-2012 at 10:10 PM. Reason: parag

  3. #20
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    @2wheels - i appreciate your input.
    i believe tennis has a 20-25 second rule to serve once a ball goes out of play. maybe this is something the badminton high echelon can look into and then implement a similar rule (mindful of the game of badminton) to "prevent any unfair play/unfair advantage."
    lastly, it would be a delight if badminton central can have a resource person- like an umpire in this case- to direct us to the official and correct answers to our queries.

  4. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by raceto21 View Post
    .
    lastly, it would be a delight if badminton central can have a resource person- like an umpire in this case
    That would be me

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    One of the most tardy singles player to serve is prolly Eriko Hirose.

    The way she holds the shuttle so high above her head (for what seems like an infinite length of time) reminds me of those ancient Greek statues!
    Last edited by axl886; 01-16-2012 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axl886 View Post
    One of the most tardy singles player to serve is prolly Eriko Hirose. The way she holds the shuttle so high above her head (for what seems like an infinite length of time) reminds me of those ancient Greek statues!
    Hirose was faulted once at one of the GPG events, for you guessed it, delay of game.

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    Invariably in most match videos I have seen, the serve is done within 5 seconds. This is about the standard timing adopted by most qualified umpires.

    Once both the server and receiver are ready for the serve, it should not take more than 5 seconds. Beyond the 5 seconds, the receiver can lose concentration and his stance unstable. If i were the receiver, and the umpire has not intervened, I will stop and highlight this delay to the umpire. By doing so, u will get rid of this nonsense.
    Eriko Hirose is taking 5-7 seconds to deliver her serve, which she is rightly faulted for pushing her luck.

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    The "unwritten" rule is about 5 seconds...

    Personally, I would call the offending player to me and inform them that once both players have taken their positions, thy must not unduly delay the delivery of the shuttle..

    If not heeded, they will be faulted for service delay....

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    its nice to know that CANTSMASHTHIS and (possibly) SERVICEOVER are umpires. i will definitely put more attention on your posts.
    kinda off topic ( but just like the delay of service rule i want to have a clearer definition on and have one formulated) - there should also be a rule against a player BLOWING HIS NOSE on the sidelines- a practice i find unsanitary and disgusting to me as a spectator.

    i believe if you elevate the standards then you elevate the game! thanks for everyones reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serviceover View Post
    The "unwritten" rule is about 5 seconds...

    Personally, I would call the offending player to me and inform them that once both players have taken their positions, thy must not unduly delay the delivery of the shuttle..

    If not heeded, they will be faulted for service delay....
    I agree with the unwrittten rule of 5 seconds.

    But in a match situation, u don't have the time to talk it over with your opponent. If you are irked by his antics, I will let him delay as long as he wants and then stopped him when he is about to serve and make the complain to the umpire. This way you are giving him a dose of his own medicine.

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by raceto21 View Post
    kinda off topic ( but just like the delay of service rule i want to have a clearer definition on and have one formulated) - there should also be a rule against a player BLOWING HIS NOSE on the sidelines- a practice i find unsanitary and disgusting to me as a spectator. .
    I know exactly who you mean... he's practically the only pro athtlete I know of who does this on live telecast!

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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    I know exactly who you mean... he's practically the only pro athtlete I know of who does this on live telecast!
    He is a top pro, so that the cameras follow him everywhere. I think BWF should provide courtside hand sanitizers for the Superseries tournament and avoid screening to the disgust of the TV viewers.

    If u ban it, he will give walkover instead.

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    It is very useful to pause briefly while holding the shuttle in the serve ready position and judge the posture and position of the receiver and their partner.

    In doubles against an aggresively poised receiver, placement is important. Also they may become uncomfortable holding their tensed position and rebalance themselves slightly (serve!)

    I dont think it causes undue delay, it only need two seconds or so and allows you to concentrate on your serving action.

    During tournaments i see the receivers tend to be slowing down play more while preparing to receive the serve.

  14. #31
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    Default umpire cannot apply unwritten rules, and there is no 5 second limit

    Quote Originally Posted by bambino View Post
    Invariably in most match videos I have seen, the serve is done within 5 seconds. This is about the standard timing adopted by most qualified umpires.

    Once both the server and receiver are ready for the serve, it should not take more than 5 seconds. Beyond the 5 seconds, the receiver can lose concentration and his stance unstable. If i were the receiver, and the umpire has not intervened, I will stop and highlight this delay to the umpire. By doing so, u will get rid of this nonsense.

    Eriko Hirose is taking 5-7 seconds to deliver her serve, which she is rightly faulted for pushing her luck.
    In many match videos, yes, the service will take about the time you observed. But not all. And it looks like you are timing when the player is setting to serve, correct? Not from when the rally ends to when the rally starts. This latter time is usually anywhere from 13-22 seconds, and in many games, a wider range.

    There is no such thing in the rule book or the recommendations as standard timing adopted by umpire, qualified or not; the time is dependent on the game situation, and the player/s.

    The general practice will be - when the server is ready, the receiver must be ready, and vice versa. Once again, there is no time limit. The umpire will consider among other things, is the court safe to play (no sweat drops, etc), request for shuttle change, broken racquet strings or broken racquet, or a quick towel, player needing medical attention (scrapes, or blood) etc.

    A player loosing his/her concentration or having an unstable stance is not the umpire's responsibility. If you as a player, stop and highlight such a delay to the umpire, do not be surprised to hear from the umpire something like - Bambino, you are here to play, so play, do not do my work. Now, get back in your court and be ready to receive.


    Quote Originally Posted by serviceover View Post
    The "unwritten" rule is about 5 seconds...

    Personally, I would call the offending player to me and inform them that once both players have taken their positions, they must not unduly delay the delivery of the shuttle..

    If not heeded, they will be faulted for service delay....
    Unwritten rules? There is no such thing. A general practice, perhaps (see above).

    An umpire cannot enforce unwritten laws or rules of competition.

    As for the calling the offender, it is best to do this the first or the second time you as an umpires sees it happen, or in any case, early in the [first] game, not when all the water has gone under the bridge. For example, it will not be a good practice to all the offender/s in the rubber game with only five points more to play. That would be very harsh.

    And even then, you may not want to give the ultimatum and tie your hands, like you will be faulted for service delay. Why? There may be several other mitigating factors that may be relevant (see above - wet court, shuttle/racquet change, medical help, etc)


    Quote Originally Posted by bambino View Post
    I agree with the unwrittten rule of 5 seconds.

    But in a match situation, u don't have the time to talk it over with your opponent. If you are irked by his antics, I will let him delay as long as he wants and then stopped him when he is about to serve and make the complain to the umpire. This way you are giving him a dose of his own medicine.
    Agreement with others on this forum does not mean it will be correct.

    And in match situation, as a player you do not want to be talking with your opponent, at least with your mouth. Why? This could be interpreted as distraction, or intimidation, and therefore unsporting behaviour. Your giving the same medicinal-dose is probably a good method. Dont be surprised if the umpire gives instructions to both of you to "Play," or even call you and let you both know that s/he knows what is going on and "Bambino, s/he is ready to serve, you must be ready to receive," or "Bambino, s/he is ready to receive, you must be ready to serve."


    Quote Originally Posted by raceto21 View Post
    @2wheels - i appreciate your input.
    i believe tennis has a 20-25 second rule to serve once a ball goes out of play. maybe this is something the badminton high echelon can look into and then implement a similar rule (mindful of the game of badminton) to "prevent any unfair play/unfair advantage."
    lastly, it would be a delight if badminton central can have a resource person- like an umpire in this case- to direct us to the official and correct answers to our queries.
    This time limit is partially correct. Rule 30 in tennis - Continuous Play and Rest Periods - the USTA states that
    "The 20 second rule applies only to certain international circuits and team events recognized by the ITF. When practical, in USTA sanctioned tournaments using a certified official in direct observation of the match, the time which shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play at the end of the point to the time the ball is struck shall not exceed 25 seconds.]"

    However, just like badminton, in tennis also, the Umpire shall use his discretion when there is interference which makes it impractical for play to be continuous.

    There is one situation that tennis rules are clear on and that in badminton there is no equivalent, and this is:
    When changing ends a maximum of one minute thirty seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play at the end of the game to the time the ball is struck for the first point of the next game.

    In badminton as the game is not played on three levels as tennis (game, set, match) but only two, there is no time limitation binding a player when the rally ends in any game and the next rally must start, unless it is the rally preceding the interval or it is the game winning rally.
    Last edited by 2wheels04; 01-20-2012 at 01:02 PM.

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnv View Post
    It is very useful to pause briefly while holding the shuttle in the serve ready position and judge the posture and position of the receiver and their partner.

    In doubles against an aggresively poised receiver, placement is important. Also they may become uncomfortable holding their tensed position and rebalance themselves slightly (serve!)

    I dont think it causes undue delay, it only need two seconds or so and allows you to concentrate on your serving action.


    During tournaments i see the receivers tend to be slowing down play more while preparing to receive the serve.
    And this time will increase as the game and match progresses, or after making a come-back, or after taking a lead and then loosing the rally. Most coaches will recommend slowing down the game, to re-focus, and this is good coaching. When this becomes unfair practice by player/s is when the umpire may take appropriate action.

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    @2wheels04:

    How long would u let them stand, once both are ready... 10, 15, 30 seconds ??

    Are you an Umpire ? Ever sat in the chair ? If so, what level ?
    Last edited by serviceover; 01-20-2012 at 01:54 PM.

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    Firstly, let me clarify to all that I am seeing this issue as if a player in a competitive match.

    To 2wheels04, I am surprised by yr elaborate explanations. You are not addressing the issue here. I
    am referring to the specific time duration when both server and receiver are ready. Not the time players are catching some breath in between rallies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheels04 View Post
    In many match videos, yes, the service will take about the time you observed. But not all. And it looks like you are timing when the player is setting to serve, correct? Not from when the rally ends to when the rally starts. This latter time is usually anywhere from 13-22 seconds, and in many games, a wider range.]
    There is no such thing in the rule book or the recommendations as standard timing adopted by umpire, qualified or not; the time is dependent on the game situation, and the player/s.

    The general practice will be - when the server is ready, the receiver must be ready, and vice versa. Once again, there is no time limit. The umpire will consider among other things, is the court safe to play (no sweat drops, etc), request for shuttle change, broken racquet strings or broken racquet, or a quick towel, player needing medical attention (scrapes, or blood) etc.]

    When both server and receiver are ready, the umpire will not have the time to entertain court side requests e.g. shuttle change, towelling etc. That should be done between the rallies.

    A player loosing his/her concentration or having an unstable stance is not the umpire's responsibility. If you as a player, stop and highlight such a delay to the umpire, do not be surprised to hear from the umpire something like - Bambino, you are here to play, so play, do not do my work. Now, get back in your court and be ready to receive.]

    Every player has a right to highlight in an infringement. That few seconds is the period of intense concentration for the receiver. It is up to the umpire to entertain his complaint. Having the shuttle in the hand, does not give the server the right for undue delay in the execution of serve. That is why u rarely see this happening beyond 5 seconds at the professional/superseries level.

    Unwritten rules? There is no such thing. A general practice, perhaps (see above).

    All of us know of the rule for no undue delay to execute the serve. Most of us agree that it is about 5 seconds, beyond that you as the server can risk being warned or faulted by the umpire. Likewise, the receiver can complain against the delay and infringement. The umpire can rule that u have taken undue delay in the serve which is allowed in the Rules. If you still do not believe the 5 seconds limit, u can check youtube with so many professional matches available.

    An umpire cannot enforce unwritten laws or rules of competition.

    As for the calling the offender, it is best to do this the first or the second time you as an umpires sees it happen, or in any case, early in the [first] game, not when all the water has gone under the bridge. For example, it will not be a good practice to all the offender/s in the rubber game with only five points more to play. That would be very harsh.

    A good umpire will warn players against any infringement.

    And even then, you may not want to give the ultimatum and tie your hands, like you will be faulted for service delay. Why? There may be several other mitigating factors that may be relevant (see above - wet court, shuttle/racquet change, medical help, etc).

    Agreement with others on this forum does not mean it will be correct.

    Sorry mate, I prefer to agree others because they are more correct than wrong.

    And in match situation, as a player you do not want to be talking with your opponent, at least with your mouth. Why? This could be interpreted as distraction, or intimidation, and therefore unsporting behaviour. Your giving the same medicinal-dose is probably a good method. Dont be surprised if the umpire gives instructions to both of you to "Play," or even call you and let you both know that s/he knows what is going on and "Bambino, s/he is ready to serve, you must be ready to receive," or "Bambino, s/he is ready to receive, you must be ready to serve."

    Of course, in a match situation, we only highlight the infringement to the umpire. A player should not be fearful to highlight. After all, he is there to take every risk to win the point. Many a time, the umpire does not enforce the Rules. I will encourage players to have such awareness as it is a positive and competitive attribute, knowing how taking care of oneself in the match situation.

    Please do not compare tennis rules with badminton. To me, tennis sucks. I don't want to elaborate on that. Period.

    This time limit is partially correct. Rule 30 in tennis - Continuous Play and Rest Periods - the USTA states that
    "The 20 second rule applies only to certain international circuits and team events recognized by the ITF. When practical, in USTA sanctioned tournaments using a certified official in direct observation of the match, the time which shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play at the end of the point to the time the ball is struck shall not exceed 25 seconds.]"

    However, just like badminton, in tennis also, the Umpire shall use his discretion when there is interference which makes it impractical for play to be continuous.

    There is one situation that tennis rules are clear on and that in badminton there is no equivalent, and this is:
    When changing ends a maximum of one minute thirty seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play at the end of the game to the time the ball is struck for the first point of the next game.

    In badminton as the game is not played on three levels as tennis (game, set, match) but only two, there is no time limitation binding a player when the rally ends in any game and the next rally must start, unless it is the rally preceding the interval or it is the game winning rally.

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