another serving query...

[amleto]

I am quite a 'fast' server. By this I mean that there is very little pause between me addressing the shuttle, and me starting my serve.

Some club members get used to this and anticipate my timing of serve. When I notice this I add a deliberate pause whilst addressing the shuttle - nothing extravagent, 4-6 seconds. During this pause, the reciver will often step/leap forward trying to attack my serve that hasn't started yet.

Now, as far as I can understand it, this isn't a fault because I haven't started my serve.

1) Is this correct?

2) If I notice them 'charging' my serve before I have started any serve action, can I start my serve action to bring about a (receiver) fault?

looking forward to your opinions and explanations.

[Avenger]

have you swing your racket and then stop
or you did not swing the racket at all during the service?

[amleto]

have you swing your racket and then stop
or you did not swing the racket at all during the service?

Some club members get used to this and anticipate my timing of serve. When I notice this I add a deliberate pause whilst addressing the shuttle - nothing extravagent, 4-6 seconds. During this pause, the reciver will often step/leap forward trying to attack my serve that hasn't started yet.

fifteen charact

[visor]

imo, holding the shuttle and racket in the ready position (i'm interpreting this as addressing the shuttle) for more than 3 secs is too long

[chris-ccc]

imo, holding the shuttle and racket in the ready position (i'm interpreting this as addressing the shuttle) for more than 3 secs is too long

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BWF should come out with a 'specific/measured' time.

Currently, no one can say what is too short or too long.
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[amleto]

there is no way 3 secs can be too long from any of the rules.

I think the exact phrase from whatever rule is 'undue delay'.

9.1.1 neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of server's racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be considered to be an undue delay;

http://www.worldbadminton.com/rules/#9

anyway, back on topic - does someone moving in anticipation of a serve before it has even started count as a fault?

If I'm quick enough, does starting the serve whilst they are in motion induce a receiver fault?

[chris-ccc]

there is no way 3 secs can be too long from any of the rules.

I think the exact phrase from whatever rule is 'undue delay'.

http://www.worldbadminton.com/rules/#9

anyway, back on topic - does someone moving in anticipation of a serve before it has even started count as a fault?

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Yes, the receiver moving in anticipation of a serve before it has even started will be counted as a fault.

I posted these comments in another thread;

Personally, I don't like these 2 Laws, namely;

(1) The first CONTINUOUS forward movement of a server's racket is the START of a rally
(2) The receiver is not allowed to move before the shuttlecock is hit (during Service)

However, we need to understand from the History of Badminton why laws makers implemented these faults.

In (1), decades ago, servers would do a 'Multiple Action' when doing the Service.

'Multiple Action (at Service)' = Doing the Service by moving the racket head forward and backward, and forward and backward (several times), before striking the shuttlecock. This creates a disadvantage to the receiver. Why? Because the receiver doesn't know which of the forward strokes is actually performing the Service.

But I would tell my trainees to pay attention to the shuttlecock; and not to the server's action.

In (2), the server could not concentrate in performing a good Service when the receiver is moving; that is, moves up and down, forward and backward, side to side, etc, etc, ......

But I would tell my trainees to observe the receiver's movement and serve to the location/area of the court opposite to where the receiver is moving to.

Conclusion: We cannot do what we like, but to follow the Laws of Badminton as laid down to all players by our Badminton authority, the BWF.

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[visor]

there is no way 3 secs can be too long from any of the rules.

I think the exact phrase from whatever rule is 'undue delay'.

http://www.worldbadminton.com/rules/#9

anyway, back on topic - does someone moving in anticipation of a serve before it has even started count as a fault?

If I'm quick enough, does starting the serve whilst they are in motion induce a receiver fault?

if you watch tournaments and pros play, 3-4 secs max in the addressing position will be all you see

6 secs is too long, your opponents will not like your mind games if you're playing social/club games
and if you're in tournament competition, the umpire will warn you of undue delay

[amleto]

chris,

(2) The receiver is not allowed to move before the shuttlecock is hit (during Service)

what does during service mean - I thought during service was from the start of the forward swing?

edit:

yes:

9.1.3 some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);

9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server's racket head shall be the start of the service.

Therefore the receiver moving feet before the service has started is not covered in the rules.

[chris-ccc]

chris,
what does during service mean - I thought during service was from the start of the forward swing?

edit:

yes:

Therefore the receiver moving feet before the service has started is not covered in the rules.

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Looks like you want to find a loophole in the Laws of Badminton.

In plain language, the receiver is not allowed to move before the shuttlecock is being hit during the Service.

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[druss]

chris,
what does during service mean - I thought during service was from the start of the forward swing?

edit:

yes:

Therefore the receiver moving feet before the service has started is not covered in the rules.

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Looks like you want to find a loophole in the Laws of Badminton.

In plain language, the receiver is not allowed to move before the shuttlecock is being hit during the Service.

.

Agreed but... the wording of the rules do not clearly state that. It says that the service starts at the first forward motion but also that the players are to have both feet touching the ground and that the server can't start the service until both players are ready.

Based on that I would say there is no fault from either side, maybe the server would even get faulted as the receiver is clearly not ready if he's in motion....

[wirre]

Agreed but... the wording of the rules do not clearly state that. It says that the service starts at the first forward motion but also that the players are to have both feet touching the ground and that the server can't start the service until both players are ready.

Based on that I would say there is no fault from either side, maybe the server would even get faulted as the receiver is clearly not ready if he's in motion....

It depends.... as usual when interpreting laws/rules. Usually in int. tournaments you'll see that reciever are declaring when they are ready. Or rather when *not* ready by holding up the non-racket hand. As soon as the hand goes down (s)he counts as "ready".

In this case described by amleto I'd say if the reciever has taken position and let the hand fall that means "ready" state is declared and any movement of feet before serve is delivered (and started) is a fault. If recieving position hasn't been taken it is a fault to serve, but the reciever may also be warned (if umpired) for undue delay of play.

Now the question is if the "pause" between "presenting" and "starting" made by amleto is to be considered a fault too? Less than 6s I wouldn't care (probably take 3-4s myself), but over 10s is definitly not ok IMO.

that's my 0.02 SEK / mats

[druss]

Agreed but as with many of the rules they aren't as detailed as they could be, mostly because many of the rules require some judgment by the umpire. This is true with the rules of most sports though.

[amleto]

Agreed but... the wording of the rules do not clearly state that. It says that the service starts at the first forward motion but also that the players are to have both feet touching the ground and that the server can't start the service until both players are ready.

Based on that I would say there is no fault from either side, maybe the server would even get faulted as the receiver is clearly not ready if he's in motion....

to be clear, consider the receiver as ready, and then stepping/lunging forward in anticipation of serve. Please also take the time spent addressing shuttle as NOT undue. (My normal rhythm is 1-2s, so I only need to wait 4-5s total to drastically change it. )

The server can't be faulted for serving when receiver not ready, only a let may be called.

[visor]

Your 1-2 secs addressing the shuttle is not fast at all. Fast would be practically less than 0.5 secs or almost instantaneous, ie the shuttle is hit the moment it is brought into the ready position.

[amleto]

imo, holding the shuttle and racket in the ready position (i'm interpreting this as addressing the shuttle) for more than 3 secs is too long

if you watch tournaments and pros play, 3-4 secs max in the addressing position will be all you see

6 secs is too long, your opponents will not like your mind games if you're playing social/club games
and if you're in tournament competition, the umpire will warn you of undue delay

Your 1-2 secs addressing the shuttle is not fast at all. Fast would be practically less than 0.5 secs or almost instantaneous, ie the shuttle is hit the moment it is brought into the ready position.

none of your posts have addressed the thread topic.

[chris-ccc]

The server can't be faulted for serving when receiver not ready, only a let may be called.

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If I were the umpire, and;

(1) When your receiver is not ready and you serve, I would call it a 'Let'.

(2) When you serve again before your receiver is ready, I would call it a 'Fault' and show you a Yellow card.

(3) When you serve again before your receiver is ready, I would show you a Red card and announce "Game and Match Over".

Perhaps I am a strict umpire, but I would not allow your 'Gamesmanship' to gain control over your receiver.
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