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  1. #1
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    Default I got sand bagged!!!

    I've been debating if I wanted to post this because it really hurt getting whooped on so badly. Last weekend I played in a local tournament and I played mens singles D flight. I've played D and C in northern and southern california. I've made it to quarter finals in D's (never finals ) and I can usually only get through a round or two in C's. I know i'm currently a D level player. The finals ended up being 21-4 and 21-10 and to no surprise, this player was in fact a B level player from what I heard.

    So my questions is what do you do about sand baggers and getting sand bagged? A few of my friends say "It will always happen" and the tournament director also gave me the "I can't do anything" excuse, but I have to believe that there is something we CAN do. Yes, I'm going to train harder, but as far as fair play and competition goes, what can tournament directors do? What can other players do?

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    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    in the US? not much.

    there is no working ranking system for these local private tournaments. there is a national ranking system but it doesn't apply to us mortals.

    USAB is powerless as they don't sanction these small tournaments. and then on the flip side, these small tournament don't want to be sanctioned as it costs more for the tournament to be sanctioned and cost more for the players as they will need to be USAB member.

    the only way is for the tournament directors to voluntarily get together and start ranking players. but tournament directors are unlikely willing to cooperate to create a ranking system. it means more work on top of what tournament directors have to organize a tournament.

    as a result, tournament directors will give you a shrug as all they truely are powerless. there is no rule on what flight one can play.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    i there is no rule on what flight one can play.
    True, though you've to wonder why anyone knowingly play 2 levels lower in order to win. What's the meaning of the victory, unless this is the first time the player competes, and he's unsure of his level? If this is the case, you just need to keep playing tournaments, whenever there's one. You can't possibly run into one of these every time, can you?

  4. #4
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Sand baggers and getting sand bagged

    Quote Originally Posted by illusionistpro View Post
    I've been debating if I wanted to post this because it really hurt getting whooped on so badly. Last weekend I played in a local tournament and I played mens singles D flight. I've played D and C in northern and southern california. I've made it to quarter finals in D's (never finals ) and I can usually only get through a round or two in C's. I know i'm currently a D level player. The finals ended up being 21-4 and 21-10 and to no surprise, this player was in fact a B level player from what I heard.

    So my questions is what do you do about sand baggers and getting sand bagged? A few of my friends say "It will always happen" and the tournament director also gave me the "I can't do anything" excuse, but I have to believe that there is something we CAN do. Yes, I'm going to train harder, but as far as fair play and competition goes, what can tournament directors do? What can other players do?
    .
    (1) What can tournament directors do?

    One of the things that tournament directors can do is they should prevent a player from entering a same event in which that player has won before.

    Graded tournaments are 'fun' tournaments for players of the same skill level in our Badminton community. If a player has won (for an event of a particular grade) before, then he/she should be promoted up to the next higher grade (for that same event). And the tournament directors should promote him/her, if the player is unaware of this system.

    However, for events in the highest grade, previous winning players should not be refused to enter in the same events again, since there is no higher grade they can participate in.


    (2) What can other players do?

    Tell tournament directors to make a notice on the entry form with this message;

    Entries of players who have won in events of a particular grade (other than A Grade) shall be transferred to the next higher grade.

    .

  5. #5
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Some players do not understand what 'Graded' tournaments mean

    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    True, though you've to wonder why anyone knowingly play 2 levels lower in order to win. What's the meaning of the victory, unless this is the first time the player competes, and he's unsure of his level? If this is the case, you just need to keep playing tournaments, whenever there's one. You can't possibly run into one of these every time, can you?
    .
    Sad to say that in our sport, Badminton, some players do not understand what 'Graded' tournaments mean.

    In Karate, with their participants understanding the Karate philosophy, no higher coloured belt holder would want to fight with lower coloured belt holder in tournaments.
    .

  6. #6
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    True, though you've to wonder why anyone knowingly play 2 levels lower in order to win. What's the meaning of the victory, unless this is the first time the player competes, and he's unsure of his level? If this is the case, you just need to keep playing tournaments, whenever there's one. You can't possibly run into one of these every time, can you?
    when people start doing that, they obviously have stopped thinking about the meaning but instead just want the victory.

  7. #7
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Sad to say that in our sport, Badminton, some players do not understand what 'Graded' tournaments mean.

    In Karate, with their participants understanding the Karate philosophy, no higher coloured belt holder would want to fight with lower coloured belt holder in tournaments.
    .
    that's the difference though, in Karate, they are well defined "grades" / belts. in badminton there isn't. if there is something like that to differentiate levels, then it will be must easier.

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    Regular Member V1lau's Avatar
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    Sorry to say, but your friends are completely right that this has always happened and will continue to happen. I agree with Kwun that the only solution is for the community to come together and create it's own ranking system, but who would want to host or do the extra work to keep such a database updated. I just wanted to say that I had these same thought's in 90's when I was active in tournaments, it's funny and sad at the same time, how some things never really change. It took me nearly 3 or 4 years to win my first D flight, but after that I was playing A/B flight like a year after that, so don't get discouraged, we've all been there.

  9. #9
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    there are many issues, most of which maybe solvable (or not) with a ranking system.

    there is firstly the identity. there needs to be a central database for players. and all tournament must enforce that all players are registered.
    there is the ranking. what ranking system does it use? similar style as BWF?
    notional ranking. if Taufik comes to play in a local tournament (and he had done so before), how do we place him? if someone really good from another part of the country comes to play, how do we rank him?
    hosting the database. probably be online somewhere. who is going to host it? BC?
    writing the software. someone needs to go write the software for this. who will do the work?
    extra work for tournament director. is it worth the extra work? won't they just bag the money and not worry about it? so much easier...

  10. #10
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Winning an event in a grade = Promotion to the next higher grade

    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    that's the difference though, in Karate, they are well defined "grades" / belts. in badminton there isn't. if there is something like that to differentiate levels, then it will be must easier.
    .
    That's what I was trying to say;

    Winning an event in a grade = Promotion to the next higher grade (for that event).

    The winning of an event in a grade is a sign that he/she has arrived at the top skill in that grade. He/she is differentiated from all those defeated by him/her.

    A particular player is to;

    * Play in B-grade in Singles (because he/she has won in C and D grades before).
    * Play in C-grade in Mixed Doubles (because he/she has won in D grade before).
    * Play in D-grade in Level Doubles (because he/she has not won before).

    This way, a player can participate in all 3 disciplines in different grades. This is because some players are very strong in one discipline, but hopelessly weak in another.

    Even if tournament directors have forgotten past results, I am sure some participants from previous tournaments will remember. These participants can inform the tournament directors.

    I have participated in many other sports. I like to win and be promoted up the grading system.

    I cannot understand those players wishing to stay back in their same grades forever. Perhaps, they started tournaments late in life and do not know that they should allow others to win trophies/titles. Even at schools, we have age-gradings; the Under-12, Under-15, Under-17, etc...
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 06-02-2011 at 03:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    probably the issue is that there are only 4 grades. A/B/C/D.

    there is only one winner for each grade. so ppl who knows they cannot win B will try to sandbag to C, and then when C is stuff with B players, then ppl sand bag to D.

    now, the whole system is screwed up with everyone sandbagging.

  12. #12
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    I have participated in many other sports. I like to win and be promoted up the grading system.

    I cannot understand those players wishing to stay back in their same grades forever. Perhaps, they started tournaments late in life and do not know that they should allow others to win trophies/titles. Even at schools, we have age-gradings; the Under-12, Under-15, Under-17, etc...
    .
    i agree with you. but unfortunately, i think the way something think is this. if you ask them to choose between losing honorably in the proper grade, or winning a trophy via sandbagging, they will choose the latter. it is sad.

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    Regular Member V1lau's Avatar
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    Winning an event in a grade = Promotion to the next higher grade (for that event).
    This assumes all tournaments are equal, which I'm pretty sure they are not in terms of depth and strength of competition.

  14. #14
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    i invited the tournament director of the said tournament to comment on this thread. not sure if he will but will certainly be interesting to see the issue from a different perspective.

  15. #15
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow All D-Grade players should be players who have not won anything before

    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    probably the issue is that there are only 4 grades. A/B/C/D.

    there is only one winner for each grade. so ppl who knows they cannot win B will try to sandbag to C, and then when C is stuff with B players, then ppl sand bag to D.

    now, the whole system is screwed up with everyone sandbagging.
    .
    IMHO, all D-Grade (or the lowest grade) players should be players who have not won anything before.

    Actually there is a BC thread (Australian), started 2 weeks ago, about participants sandbagging at a Melbourne tournament. I tried to find that thread to let American BCers read what Australian BCers think. But somehow, that thread has gone missing; I couldn't find that thread anymore.
    .

  16. #16
    Regular Member V1lau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    i agree with you. but unfortunately, i think the way something think is this. if you ask them to choose between losing honorably in the proper grade, or winning a trophy via sandbagging, they will choose the latter. it is sad.
    I remember I would play 2 flights because I wanted to play more badminton. It's no fun to drive and wake up early and lose in the first round because you played the higher flight only, plus now I think tournaments are pretty expensive, so maybe that's why they might only play the lower flight to get more games in.
    Last edited by V1lau; 06-02-2011 at 03:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow If a C-Grade player coming from California to Australia to play...

    Quote Originally Posted by V1lau View Post
    This assumes all tournaments are equal, which I'm pretty sure they are not in terms of depth and strength of competition.
    .
    Ah ha... I am talking about players winning in a particular tournament.

    Even if a C-Grade player coming from California to Australia to play and wish to play in our Australian (Melbourne) D-Grade, we cannot say no.

    But if he/she has been here before, and has won in our B-Grade before, even if graded C in California, this player should be not be permitted to play in our B-Grade tournament.
    .

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