today's serve judge let me recall Yawen Zhang's 11 fault calls in WC 2006

[RSLvictorSOTX]

Nothing wrong with that either ... Waist = bottom rib, cork of shuttle

I thought so too.

[demolidor]

Thought I'd doublecheck since my interpretation was the point of contact should be below the waist ...

9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server’s waist at the instant of being hit by the server’s racket. The waist shall be considered to be an imaginary line round the body, level with the lowest part of the server’s bottom rib;
9.1.6 the shaft of the server’s racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction;

Which makes Boe's borderline which it does usually look when seeing it in action instead of on these stills (in particular the big one is not exactly at impact) but not blatant like the boys in yellow below which is closer to the solar plexus .
The shorts line for Boe is slightly too low I see; you can see the line through his short a little halfway between the red lines but it's better to guesstimate from the armpit down ...

[demolidor]

One more for good measure @ 4-5 2nd set (not called either)

+ why cork can ~= whole shuttle

[lcleing]

Was watching live sitting only barely a few meters from them. I can concur the Chinese pair were serving with the racket face not facing downwards. During the preparation phase, their serves looked legal as the racket face was down. However, their racket faces changed at the moment of impact and it was clear from the TV replay that the racket face was not facing downwards when they hit the serve.

They got what they deserved-Tried to push the limit of the law. It is regretable that this pair didn't get faulted earlier as most of their serves were bordering on violating the rules(racket face being horizontal while serving).

[yamsyams]

9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server’s waist at the instant of being hit by the server’s racket. The waist shall be considered to be an imaginary line round the body, level with the lowest part of the server’s bottom rib;
9.1.6 the shaft of the server’s racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction;

Nothing in here about the racket face needing to point downwards? Unless by racket face you actually meant shaft.

Also
Looks pretty borderline to me.

[demolidor]

9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server’s waist at the instant of being hit by the server’s racket. The waist shall be considered to be an imaginary line round the body, level with the lowest part of the server’s bottom rib;
9.1.6 the shaft of the server’s racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction;

Nothing in here about the racket face needing to point downwards? Unless by racket face you actually meant shaft.

Also
Looks pretty borderline to me.

If you can demonstrate how to have the racket face up whilst the shaft is facing downward be our guest? And if you're going to call every borderline incident in sports I'm sure not many matches would reach the end

[lcleing]

9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server’s waist at the instant of being hit by the server’s racket. The waist shall be considered to be an imaginary line round the body, level with the lowest part of the server’s bottom rib;
9.1.6 the shaft of the server’s racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction;

Nothing in here about the racket face needing to point downwards? Unless by racket face you actually meant shaft.

.

I thought it was apparent enough that every racket has to have a straight shaft(unless you are using some counterfeit Yonet/LiNing rackets with a crooked shaft). This means that your racket shaft has to be pointing toward the same direction as your racket face. i.e If your racket shaft is horizontal, your racket face has to be horizontal.

Probably, I should have used the word racket head instead of racket face to avoid confusion.

Also
Looks pretty borderline to me

Thank you for confirming my(and the service judge's) viewpoint. If you think that Boe's serve was on the borderline, Guo and Chai's serves were definitely way over the limit. Hence, they deserve the service faults called.

[oasis123]

Looks pretty borderline to me.

Thank you for the pic, yours is captured better than mine. His arm tends to move up a bit when the shuttle was hit. It's very subjective and could be one one way or the other.

[AlanY]

can you believe such a stupid rule could be in any other professional sport? its all based on an imaginary line that nobody can see or verify!

[demolidor]

can you believe such a stupid rule could be in any other professional sport? its all based on an imaginary line that nobody can see or verify!

But an actual (goal)line works so much better As long as humans are involved errors will always play a part which is why some sports use video referees. And as someone has mentioned in the other thread, even if there was an actual line not everything is going to be called unless you use one of those laser burglar alarm systems and when the server breaks it the red light starts flashing . And as someone else also mentioned: it's professional sports, you always try to stretch the limits and if you break it you get caught (i.e. blatant high serves) and borderline you get some leniency. We're not robots yet thank zeus ... how boring would that be?? We wouldn't even have the chance to mindlessly babble on about it

[undeadshot]

Next time players should wear shirts that indicate where their lowest rib bone is

[AlanY]

But an actual (goal)line works so much better As long as humans are involved errors will always play a part which is why some sports use video referees. And as someone has mentioned in the other thread, even if there was an actual line not everything is going to be called unless you use one of those laser burglar alarm systems and when the server breaks it the red light starts flashing . And as someone else also mentioned: it's professional sports, you always try to stretch the limits and if you break it you get caught (i.e. blatant high serves) and borderline you get some leniency. We're not robots yet thank zeus ... how boring would that be?? We wouldn't even have the chance to mindlessly babble on about it

the problem of the 'serve below waist line' is nobody can see it, so you cant even verify that an error been made or not. may be they should use x-ray camera, that will be fun.

[demolidor]

The way I see it the rule is only there to prevent excesses not to for foul calling. It's not that hard to roughly estimate the line and a clear excess of it isn't that hard to tell either and should be called, other than that: game on!
(of course consistently borderlining with the occassional marginal foul in there, more than a few, could be considered as an excess as well and would certainly deserve a few calls to keep them on their toes )

[AlanY]

The way I see it the rule is only there to prevent excesses not to for foul calling. It's not that hard to roughly estimate the line and a clear excess of it isn't that hard to tell either and should be called, other than that: game on!
(of course consistently borderlining with the occassional marginal foul in there, more than a few, could be considered as an excess as well and would certainly deserve a few calls to keep them on their toes )

'roughly estimate' - that is exactly the problem. the service judge can do whatever he/she like as there will be no proof that he/she was biased or made the right call. if a lineman made a wrong call, you can see it afterward from the video. even if the receiver fouled by the umpire by moved before the shuttle been hit the also can be checked later by video.
but this serve below 'the imaginary waist line' is just that, imagined by the server and the service judge.

[druss]

'roughly estimate' - that is exactly the problem. the service judge can do whatever he/she like as there will be no proof that he/she was biased or made the right call. if a lineman made a wrong call, you can see it afterward from the video. even if the receiver fouled by the umpire by moved before the shuttle been hit the also can be checked later by video.
but this serve below 'the imaginary waist line' is just that, imagined by the server and the service judge.

Not sure what you mean since it's easy enough to see in most videos whether the service is a fault or not AND it doesn't matter in any case what a video shows, even for a line call, since IBF does not use video replay.

Personally, I think all the pros are right on the border or make illegal serves all the time. They're trying to win so they will push the limits. I also think more of them should be faulted for delay of game, some of these guys walk around, wipe off with a towel... etc. too much.

[AlanY]

Not sure what you mean since it's easy enough to see in most videos whether the service is a fault or not AND it doesn't matter in any case what a video shows, even for a line call, since IBF does not use video replay.

Personally, I think all the pros are right on the border or make illegal serves all the time. They're trying to win so they will push the limits. I also think more of them should be faulted for delay of game, some of these guys walk around, wipe off with a towel... etc. too much.

what are you talking about? 'easy enough to see' the bottom rib of the server underneath the clothing! you got x-rayed eyesight, have you?

the rule about the shuttlecock must hit below the 'imaginary line' is the main problem. because its all in the mind of the service judge. its almost like to draw the imaginary goal posts in football and let the refere to decide if its a goal or not. got it?

[demolidor]

what are you talking about? 'easy enough to see' the bottom rib of the server underneath the clothing! you got x-rayed eyesight, have you?

the rule about the shuttlecock must hit below the 'imaginary line' is the main problem. because its all in the mind of the service judge. its almost like to draw the imaginary goal posts in football and let the refere to decide if its a goal or not. got it?

Yes easy enough. Unless they had their bottom rib removed to get that hourglass figure it's not exactly hard to guestimate where ones lower rib is from the armpit down for example. And in 99% of matches there is no camera evidence so a line across the net won't help in terms of "evidence" ...
As in the FIFA debate it should be applicable and executable on most if not all levels of play. If there are no camera's who can check afterwards what a service judge's performance was or immediately after a disputable call. No feedback, no behavorial adjustment?

(probably left some loose ends here and there since I'm rushing in these posts in between )