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    Default Umpire overrule the service judge

    Can the Umpire overrule the service judge if he is convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the service judge got it wrong?

    If not, why not?

    After viewing the recent Guo/Chai vs Boe/Mogensen matches (AE, semi-final), I thought the service judge was extremely unfair....

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    Not sure about that. It would be extremely difficult to see if the service judge gets it wrong from the umpires chair. There is a reason why the service judge sits down.

    As for your final statement, did you see this thread?

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...-WC-2006/page4

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    Nope. This is because during a service, both the umpire and service judge are busy.

    The service judge will observe the server, and the umpire will observe the receiver. If there are complaints from the players regarding the service judge's conduct, the tournament referee will observe the service judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koayteow.Master View Post
    Nope. This is because during a service, both the umpire and service judge are busy.

    The service judge will observe the server, and the umpire will observe the receiver. If there are complaints from the players regarding the service judge's conduct, the tournament referee will observe the service judge.
    The umpire would not actually only observe the receiver. The umpire would still observe both. Because if the umpire only stares at the receiver, he would not know when the start of the service really begins so he can't be able to just call receiver faults. An umpire is still allowed to call a service fault when a service judge is present.

    Overruling a service judge will probably almost never happen. Unless it is really blatantly obvious, and not like it could go either way, then there should be an overruling. Otherwise, I don't think I would see it happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcll99 View Post
    Can the Umpire overrule the service judge if he is convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the service judge got it wrong?

    If not, why not?
    .
    As pointed out by Cheung, the umpire (sitting on the high chair) is in no position to determine if the Service was played from under or above the waist.
    .

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    Default Umpire overrule the service judge - Not Quite! It is called making the correct call

    Quote Originally Posted by yamsyams View Post
    ... Service faults are completely at the discretion of service judges (not sure whether umpires are allowed to overrule?). And if ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Koayteow.Master View Post
    ... during a service, both the umpire and service judge are busy.

    The service judge will observe the server, and the umpire will observe the receiver. If there are complaints from the players regarding the service judge's conduct, the tournament referee will observe the service judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by pcll99 View Post
    Can the Umpire overrule the service judge if he is convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the service judge got it wrong?

    If not, why not?

    ... the recent Guo/Chai vs Boe/Mogensen matches (AE, semi-final), I thought the service judge was extremely unfair....

    As everyone who has played in an organised tourney is aware, the roles and responsibilities of the various technical officials (umpire, service judge, line judge, referee) are defined in the laws.

    From the situation described above, I reckon the main aspect being discussed here is the perceived above the waist service. The appointed service judge is tasked with ascertaining the legality of the serve (was the shuttle hit completely below the waist, was the racquet-shaft pointing downward, did the racquet hit the shuttle head, did the server keep stationary contact with both feet in the serving court, was the server's racquet continuously moving forward once it started the forward motion). These are clearly defined in Law 9.1.

    There is a situation when the Umpire may call a fault on the server. This is given in Law 13 under "undue delay of service" and 'delay of game' Law 16 - Continuous play, misconduct and penalties.

    The delay of service due to movement of the racquet head is the sole responsibility of the service judge. The delay of game by server is called by the umpire, never by the service judge. How would the umpire determine this delay of game? That's easy. You all have witnessed the cross court tour many players undertake after finishing a rally in the server's side, right? Player does not pick shuttle up and get ready for serve, all the while the receiver is ready to receive. The general practice is that observe both, the server and receiver. When the receiver is ready, the server must be ready too, and vice versa. Then call service fault when server delays.

    Umpire and service judge (and the line officials) work as a team. The laws clearly allows an umpire to correct a line call. There is no provision in the law to correct a service judge. There is an instance when an umpire will call a 'foot fault' on server, although it is one of the service judge's call. This generally is the case in doubles play (mixed) when the server is in evens court and encroached the center service line with the foot. This is not a question of service judge getting it wrong - it is making the correct call as the service judge did not have a better angle.

    As to the point about players complaining to the referee about service judge while on court, it may happen when the player refuses to play further after the umpire has explained the situation, and does not follow the instruction from the umpire to "play," that the umpire will call referee. There will also be a time when the service judge becomes unfit to carry out the responsibilities during a match. This will be due to some physiological condition, not from becoming unfair.
    Last edited by 2wheels04; 05-17-2011 at 10:33 AM.

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    Hi,

    Have discussed this topic before, my answer is "how is the umpire so sure about the service fault? because during service, umpire is supposed to watch for receiver and another pair of eyes is looking at the server" Below is my elaboration ;-)

    For some national tournament till quater final in Singapore, there is no Service Judge (SJ). so umpire needs to have 70% view on server and 30% for receiver. please don't ask me how to judge the percentage, we just need to trust the umpire :-) So, the service faults might not be caught 100% by umpires.

    Law 13 never states 'undue delay of service', it covers only the FAULTs which umpire has the power to call. The 'cross court tour' is indeed a delay but not undue delay of service. it is deliberatly cause delay in, or suspension of, play (Law 16.6.1). Depending on umpires, but normally the umpire will call 'play' or caution the players who are doing do. if they keep repeating and depending on umpire's patience, he/she might issue yellow card or even red card for the player(s).
    Undue delay of service refers to movement of the forward movement of racket. Once it is in forward motion, server shall not delay by having intermittent stop in the service. It is the duty of SJ to call for such faults.
    As pointed in earier post, SJ, Umpire and LJ has their own duty and area of responsibilities.
    For instance, if a LJ saw an "out" not for the line that he/she in charge particularly, he/she not supposed to call "out" even though he is 101% sure about it, with Umpire has the right to overrule if he/she is 102% sure about it.
    Also pointed earlier, due to the height of seat of SJ, most of the service faults could on caught by SJ not Umpire.
    After making sure server is ready to serve or at least holding and standing with intention to serve, umpire will look at receiver to make sure he/she is not moving before shuttle is served, and calls 'fault receiver' upon the fault. If both receiver and server are faulted at the same time, it will be a 'let', as we know it.
    Let's go thru most of the fault:
    1. racket not in continuous forward movement, only SJ have the priviledge to observe this. Cos during this time Umpire is observing the receiver
    2. server, when serving, touches the feather prior to the head of shuttle. I believe umpire "probably", but not all the time, could hear the sound of the feather. But, i believe SJ will probably shouts "fault" faster than umpire.
    3. foot fault, this is very tricky cos due to training, their footing is strong and even they move a bit, it is small movement. Only recreational players keep making such fault :-) Again, SJ will probably has better view on this, maybe not 100% but at least his/her eyes are watching the server.
    4. above waist level, that is obvious, SJ has better view on this.
    5. shaft pointing upward, again SJ would have better view.
    As explained, we can see the duty of SJ is specific. Not that Umpire can do the job, it is that someone is watching over the server and he/she needs to believe the judgement of SJ. Of course, human error or bias could be a major key. I believe the referee might aware that too, but we need to be hopefull that those SJ will learn from their mistake and never do it next time :-)

    Though one scenario pointed when service is in evens court, it is also hard to make such judgement, at least for all the level 1 and 2 matches that i watched, no umpires ever fault server during service. Not sure about level 3,4 or 5 BWF tournament.
    And I agree, in such situation, it is not the SJ being unfair, but unfit

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    Sorry, this is very old and it's bad to revive it, but I have the correct answer to this.

    If there is an umpire and SJ present, an umpire can never overrule a service judge, ever. This is a point in fact, I've seen it happen, but it's not supposed to be done.

    An umpire can still call service faults, but they should almost never call them with a SJ present. The only thing I'd see is foot stepping on the line or something like that, but usually still let SJ do their job.

    An umpire CAN request to the referee to replace the SJ if the umpire feels the SJ is not doing their job, but I doubt you will ever see this done either, for multiple reasons. That's why you never see umpires replacing line judges in big tournaments either.

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    It is true that an umpire cannot overrule a SJ, yet that relates to faults actually given by the SJ. The umpire cannot undo those calls. He can however call a service fault when he sees one which is not being called by the SJ. There are no directives as to the nature of the faults which can or cannot be called by the umpire, but when a service judge is present, I would agree with CantSmashThis that calling anything other than line faults, does not make sense.

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    If there is a SJ present shouldn't the umpire watch the receiver?

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    just wondering, can the players or coaches request the referree to replace the service judges or line judges?

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    They can request but whether the tournament referee will do it is another matter. The umpire has the authority to replace a line judge as well - I have seen this happen in China.

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    To answer Phili´s question, yes, the umpire does watch the receiver, but not so intensely that he does not see anything else. When the chair is in the correct position, at a confortable distance from the post, an experienced umpire can easily see both.

    Players and/or coaches can ask for a technical official to be relieved from a match, going to the referee and ask for this to be done,as such is noproblem.A referee wiilhowever never do this unless the umpire supports the request. Basically, the referee will only act in cases lioke this when the initiative is with the umpire.

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