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    Regular Member allyjack110's Avatar
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    Default Honesty - The best Policy?

    I have a strange scenario for you. It's an All-England Quarter-Final or similarly important competition. It's 18-19 in the third and final game. Lets say it's a singles match for example, and a player hits a high-clear deep into their opponets rear court. The shot does in fact land in, albeit very close BUT is called 'out' by the lines person. According to the offical rule-book only the umpire can overrule such a decision, but only if a clear error has been made. The umpire does not see the error and the point thus stands. However, what would happen if the opposing player, whom was just awarded the point, thus goes up to the umpire and disputes the point having clearly seen the shuttlecock land in? Bare in mind that the player would be potentially penalising themself. Has such a thing ever happened in professional badminton before? Perhaps more to the point, could it happen and what course of action would / could the umpire take?
    Last edited by allyjack110; 03-17-2011 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Additional Info

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    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    i don't think such integrity exists these days in professional competition.

    case in point, in the AE final/semi-final, a lift from the opponent lands bang on the baseline, the linejudge called unsighted while the umpire call out. Matthias Boe dared to blatantly lie to the opponent by showing with his fingers that it was a little out. while the in shot was being replayed on the tournament live tv screen.

    maybe 30yrs back, we would see more integrity. nowadays. i highly doubt it. i sincerely hope someone would prove me wrong.

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    Regular Member Gicutzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    i don't think such integrity exists these days in professional competition.

    case in point, in the AE final/semi-final, a lift from the opponent lands bang on the baseline, the linejudge called unsighted while the umpire call out. Matthias Boe dared to blatantly lie to the opponent by showing with his fingers that it was a little out. while the in shot was being replayed on the tournament live tv screen.

    maybe 30yrs back, we would see more integrity. nowadays. i highly doubt it. i sincerely hope someone would prove me wrong.
    This is Matthias Boe we're talking about, after all

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    Regular Member allyjack110's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gicutzu View Post
    This is Matthias Boe we're talking about, after all
    What's so special about Matthias Boe? Is he quite notorious for such behaviour.

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    Regular Member Gicutzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allyjack110 View Post
    What's so special about Matthias Boe? Is he quite notorious for such behaviour.
    Apparently a lot of people think his sportsmanship is lacking, especially after the match against Chai Biao and Guo Zhendong (I think) at the AE.

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    Regular Member allyjack110's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gicutzu View Post
    Apparently a lot of people think his sportsmanship is lacking, especially after the match against Chai Biao and Guo Zhendong (I think) at the AE.
    I've heard that too; quite recently too. Whilst commentating during one of his games, Gill Clark (ex British doubles Champ) commented that Nathan Robertson also felt his sportsmanship was somewhat dubious.

    Back to the original question. What would be the likely outcome, if the opposing player WAS to confer with the Umpire, explaining that they clearly witnessed the shuttle land on the line?

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    Nothing, Umpires decision is final no matter whether you see a clear mistake or not.

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    Case in point, HKV vs CL. It's hard to tell wheter it is in or out, but no matter how much you complain, nothing will happen.

    www.YouTube.com/watch?v=qMuRB82j6AI

    From 4:45 on.....

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    Regular Member allyjack110's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LD rules! View Post
    Nothing, Umpires decision is final no matter whether you see a clear mistake or not.
    Would the umpire not take the players' integrity into consideration even though the player is essentially penalising himself?

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    @allyjack110

    The player's integrity has no impact on the umpire's decision because from a 3rd party's point of view, there's no telling who is acting with integrity vs who is just wanting the point. It may seem very easy for you to say that a player's integrity would have a sway in the umpire's decision, but it's not as black and white as that. If a player was able to change an umpire's decision, even if the player is right, it just encourages players to challenge every single close line call to try to get things to go their way in situations even if they know they're wrong. Another thing to consider is how would a judge measure a player's integrity? It's not so easy in the heat of the moment because it's such a vague term when talking about sports. A player could also potentially fake "integrity" just so he could get the point if things were how you want it.

    I'm not trying to say that the system is perfect because there's always going to be mistakes from line judges, but there has to be as much objectivity as possible (something which is sometimes lacking depending on where the tournament is). The solution to this would be to have an electronic call system much similar to the Hawk Eye cameras used in professional tennis matches, which use several cameras to track a tennis ball and are able to simulate the flight path of the ball very accurately. Again that is also not a completely perfect system, but I would say it's much better than before in the case the umpires or line judges do make a mistake.

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    As an umpire myself, I would not overrule that call even if the player was being honest UNLESS I clearly see it being one way or the other. Line judges sometimes have a different point of view from the player, so to the line judge it could seem out, while to the player it would seem in. Due to this point of view, you can't argue which one side would be correct.

    IF the player himself/herself really feels like the opponent deserved the point, then they would probably just give up the next point intentionally. But as an umpire, I would probably not change the call if it's very close. Another reason being is that I would like to have trust in my line judges that they are doing their job correctly.

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    LD rules and Tactim, I think you misunderstand the OP.
    The OP is asking what would happen if the player tells the umpire that the point should be go to his opponent (ie he's being honest).

    allyjack, these series of slightly confused posts answers your question .... just like in life, it is usually much less complicated to do the easy thing than to try and do the right thing.

    Edit: Can'tSmashThis has made the ultimate ruling. And it makes sense.
    Last edited by Fidget; 03-17-2011 at 08:52 PM.

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    Ah, yes you are quite right I misread his post. Thank you for correcting me. I guess what you can take from my post and probably has been iterated elsewhere on the board is the need for electronic line call challenge system for the tough ones that neither the line judge nor the umpire can truthfully make a good decision, helping to move towards a solution for the OP's problem.

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    on lower levels I see it being done some times. But I've never played a match with such an abundance of line judges. (Usually for me, it's an umpire calling a long line and two line judges on either side calling the backline and on side of the other long line. 3 persons in total, sometimes with a service judge).
    The linesmen are never in a perfect position to call both lines and especially on the umpires side it can be tricky. When clear errors are being made some players choose to correct the umpire to their own disadvantage. Most of the times to (at least some) applaus

    However, with line judges sitting so clearly in front of the line, the question has to be asked; how well did the player see it? After all, he's biased; he wants the point and on top of it all he's probably still moving.

    As for Mathias, I can't say I find Boe the most sympathetic player on the circuit, but for all we know he really did see it that way; he's not exactly in the roll of 'unbiased observer' (though the big screen should've been a good hint for him)

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    I think the umpire should rule based on the line judge and his own opinion, if he has clear sight of where the shuttle landed. Whether either player thinks otherwise isn't particularly relevent.

    And yes, Mathias Boe has just about the worst sportsmanship you're likely to see in badminton these days, whether it's line calls, delaying tactics or other means of giving his side an advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allyjack110 View Post
    I have a strange scenario for you. It's an All-England Quarter-Final or similarly important competition. It's 18-19 in the third and final game. Lets say it's a singles match for example, and a player hits a high-clear deep into their opponets rear court. The shot does in fact land in, albeit very close BUT is called 'out' by the lines person. According to the offical rule-book only the umpire can overrule such a decision, but only if a clear error has been made. The umpire does not see the error and the point thus stands. However, what would happen if the opposing player, whom was just awarded the point, thus goes up to the umpire and disputes the point having clearly seen the shuttlecock land in? Bare in mind that the player would be potentially penalising themself. [B]Has such a thing ever happened in professional badminton before? Perhaps more to the point, could it happen and what course of action would / could the umpire take?
    Yes it did happened to the match (Thomas cup 1982) in between the legendary Han Jian and Lim Swie King.

    LSK followed-up with his smashes on HJ that the shuttle clipped HJ right hand before it landed outside of the line. The lineman called the shot out and the umpire awarded the point to HJ but both the players already knew what had happened.

    HJ immediately signaled to the umpire that he contacted with the shuttle before it landed and the point was reverted back to LSK. Also take note that HJ sent the shuttle back to LSK for the next serve even before the umpire's decision. Of course the respected player himself received a thunderous applause from the audiences.

    The video is available on Youtube.

    That was a bygone era with different breed of players.
    Last edited by flite; 03-18-2011 at 09:13 AM.

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    Regular Member Mark A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    i don't think such integrity exists these days in professional competition.
    [...] the linejudge called unsighted while the umpire call out. Matthias Boe dared to blatantly lie to the opponent by showing with his fingers that it was a little out. while the in shot was being replayed on the tournament live tv screen.

    maybe 30yrs back, we would see more integrity. nowadays. i highly doubt it. i sincerely hope someone would prove me wrong.
    I went one stage further and wondered if Boe had deliberately unsighted the line judge...

    I was thinking along these "honest opponent" lines myself lately. I have never seen it happen at the professional level, but if a player did protest in favour of his opponent I doubt the call would go that way (and, IMO, it shouldn't) - the officials, despite what we may think, are impartial, and there's no guarantee that the other player would be as honest if a contentious line call came up at his/her/their own end. Still, the act of trying to be honest would make that player the most popular man in town that night.

    Besides, I think Gill Clark would probably faint in her commentary box if a player tried to hand his opponent a point!

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