User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 17 of 41
  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    UK & the seven seas
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Is it Shameful that BE approved coaches allowed their players to serve illegally?

    Hi all coaches and players especially those in UK,

    In the last two seasons, I have been involved with junior shires matches and also travelling around on BE sanctioned tournaments in both juniors and seniors.
    I even went on the Harrods Inter County Tournament 2011 at Nottingham University recently and notice 1 particular thing which I object.
    Players(boys and girls) continue to use backhand serve in single and doubles but contravene the rule which states at the instance when the racket hit the shuttlecock, it should be below the waist (The waist is an imaginary line below the last rib).
    I have seen players virtually hit the shuttlecock at chest level.
    I have seen player start off below the waist but throw the shuttlecock up and hit it above the waist
    I have seen players, start their racket under their arm pit and so drove the shuttlecock across the net.
    All these are happening infront of their parents and sometime their coaches (whether it be their county coach and manager or personal coach)
    parenst may have the excuse that they do not know but I am sure they know especially if they are players themselves.
    Coaches should be ashame that they allow their players to use this illegal method to gain an unfair advantage over the opponent. Some of these players are National level or Gold, Silver and Bronze graded

    What is badminton England going to do about it?
    Are they are going to sit and wait for something else to happen or are they going to take immediate action to let all coaches and tournaments organisors and Shire league committee know that something must be done to curb this illegal action.

    Maybe suspension of the coaches or administer penalties against players and establishment that support these players will stop these practice.

    If we do not curb these young players now, they will continue to practice and more and more players will copy because no action is taken against these players and the other players copy and see how far they can get away with it.

    What do BC members say?
    What do Badminton players do?

    Do we want badminton or do we want cheats that win?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Mumbai
    Posts
    1,405
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Wow, this is a very interesting topic. I think I have learned something already:

    The waist is an imaginary line below the last rib
    Can you please reference this? Thanks.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Mumbai
    Posts
    1,405
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    By the way, I always thought the "waist level" was directly at the top of the iliac crests. In badminton, if it's directly just below the last rib, this would make more sense - when I watch national and international level badminton (in real life and on TV), I always feel that at least 90% of players are serving illegally!

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,790
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    http://www.worldbadminton.com/rules/#9

    9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server's waist at the instant of being hit by the server's racket. The waist shall be considered to be an imaginary line round the body, level with the lowest part of the server's bottom rib

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Mumbai
    Posts
    1,405
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thanks amleto. I'm much more comfortable that my serving is legal now. I recently changed my way of serving so I start up much higher than I did before.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,790
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    and to respond to the op, blame the umpires! As soon as the umpires start calling faults, things will sort themselves out.

    This does of course assume every match has an umpire - I haven't been to any tournaments yet so I don't know. Next year I will be entering some bronze tournaments for the first time.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    UK & the seven seas
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Hi,

    Thanks for the link and glad that there are others who agree with my understanding of the rules.
    The problem is what is going to be done about it?

    most junior tournqaments or matches do not have Umpires so it is down to individual...that is why I think Be should enforce it with coaches and there institution.. I know some of these illegal serving players are playing for in National squad and some are from so called Performance Centre. Some are from very reputable Counties.

    It is a shame to see this lovely sports run and play by cheats.. that is why I am so against it

    If you read this, spread the word out.. get more BE staff who can do something about this to act
    or tell us how they intend to act

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    UK & the seven seas
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Hi

    this is interesting too.

    9.1.3 some part of both feet of the server and the receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);
    9.1.4 the server's racket shall initially hit the base of the shuttle;
    9.1.5 the whole shuttle shall be below the server's waist at the instant of being hit by the server's racket. The waist shall be considered to be an imaginary line round the body, level with the lowest part of the server's bottom rib;
    9.1.6 the shaft of the server's racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction;
    9.1.7 the movement of the server's racket shall continue forwards from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);
    9.1.8 the flight of the shuttle shall be upwards from the server's racket to pass over the net so that, if not intercepted, it shall land in the receiver's service court (i.e. on or within the boundary lines); and
    9.1.9 in attempting to serve, the server shall not miss the shuttle.
    9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server's racket head shall be the start of the service.
    9.3 Once started (Law 9.2), the service is delivered when the shuttle is hit by the server's racket or, in attempting to serve, the server misses the shuttle.



    9.1.6: how many times you see young players copy the professional using this "scoop" technique where the shaft could not have been pointing downwards at the instant of hitting the shuttlecock. If anything, the racket head could be above the shaft. have a look yourself and observe maybe during one of the tournament and see how many players are illegal


    maybe a university sresearch student can observe and keep a survey on this.


    9.1.8:


    These days there are a lot of DRIVE serve from players
    This will be interesting whetehr it can be in an upwards direction.. or level direction ... if not downwards

  9. #9
    Regular Member allyjack110's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    390
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Some commentators think Matthias Boe has a border-line illegal serve. If you look closely he does seem to hold his racket quite high during service. Gail Emms had the most beautiful serve.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cal Central
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skanbuzz View Post
    ...
    Coaches should be ashame that they allow their players to use this illegal method to gain an unfair advantage over the opponent. Some of these players are National level or Gold, Silver and Bronze graded
    ...
    In many sports that have umpires/referees, and this means all, except perhpas Ultimate Frisbee, players and coaches approach their matches (or games) with some agenda. Players need most of all to know what to expect from the umpires (or referees). Players go into a match with three things on their mind:
    1. to weigh up the opponent(s),
    2. decide what to do about them (and how), and
    3. test out the umpire

    The order of these may not used the same way in each game or match. However, one thing is certain, the umpire will be tested one time or the other, preferably in the beginning of the contest. Any advantage a player (or his/her team) may get, however small, fairly or unfairly, may be used to win the contest. Laws and rules exist to penalise the player when illegal and unfair means are used. Players adjust and modify their behaviour, this much I know from experience, and the more advanced the level of play, the more dynamic this adjustment will be. For example, a player may test out the service judge in the beginning of the game, and will adjust his/her next serve if faulted. S/he may also decide to waste time by asking for clarification, and so on, to catch their breath, or disrupt the rhythm and flow of the game. Then, when the umpire/service judge feel, now they have got the players to modify their action, bing, suddenly an illegal serve, or mucking the shuttle, or dropping sweat drops on the floor, sometimes sliding even when the player knew, there was no chance to get to shuttle, and wet the court, so that the umpire must now get the court wiped/mopped.

    These are the tricks and techniques, players will use, even those who do not have formal coaching programmes (youtube, anyone?). As the stakes become higher (prize monies, telly coverage, ranking points, etc), this is likely to be more prevalent, not less.

    As mentioned, when the officials in charge of the game, and the tournament, set the tone. Players and coaches are required per their code of conduct to exhibit the highest levels of sportsmanship and their actions in sporting events and in training. Winning is more important though, and the only thing that matters to most of them.

    I know of no confederation or badminton association that do not have laws and rules that will be applicable to the tournament or leagues that are played under its jurisdiction. As long as sports have win-loss, there is always going to be pushing those laws' and rules' boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not. The question then becomes, players and coaches are getting smarter every day, are the umpires smarter than the players?

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cal Central
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ssj100 View Post
    By the way, I always thought the "waist level" was directly at the top of the iliac crests. In badminton, if it's directly just below the last rib, this would make more sense - when I watch national and international level badminton (in real life and on TV), I always feel that at least 90% of players are serving illegally!
    In spite of the definition of waist in the Laws of Badminton (pp8 of 252), you will not find any umpire worth his/her timer and clipboard, prod the player on the side to find out where the last rib is, or even inquire in words.

    In practice, as a service judge, it is possible to determine the last rib location with a high level of certainty, and this technique is valid irrespective of how long or short the player's torso is. You may also determine this yourself, like this: keep your right hand to the side of your body, now stretch your hand outward at right angles without removing contact of the elbow from the side. When you feel where the bottom of the right elbow with your left hand, it will be very very close to the "... imaginary line round the body, level with the lowest part of the server’s bottom rib," as given in the laws (thanks amleto).

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    UK & the seven seas
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Hi

    any suggestions how the governing bodies are able to control the deceptive players?
    I am sure BE and all honest and true badminton players would like to know scientifically how to stop them especially when they are so young.. age 13, 14, 15, 16. 17, 18 & 19 years old

    Where do we go from here if we allow them to get away with it?... down hill all the way and everyone will try to test the law

    If it is up to me.. I will stay BAND the players for life.. band the coaches for life.. Penalise the institution with heavy fine.. that will set an example and in future anyone who try it know that they could be band for life if caught..

    It might seems extreme,, but must set an example.

    What do you all say?

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    TW, SG, HK
    Posts
    7,313
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You can't ban the players for life, especially if they are juniors. If they are playing a game with a umpire, and they have an illegal serve with the umpire not calling it, then it is the umpires fault. Professionals test the rules all the time, juniors just copy the pros at the end of the day. You can maybe fine coaches, but that's about it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cal Central
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skanbuzz View Post
    any suggestions how the governing bodies are able to control the deceptive players?
    Deception is part of the repertoire, and every player who wants to advance must know these techniques, it is part of the game. The laws do not stop any players from using deception.

    Cheating, however is not permitted, nor unfair means, but, is only penalised when caught. Think about when you yourself consciously were speeding on the motorway but were not ticketed as there were no coppers around, or they let you go as they were napping? This is just a crude example, and from my side, I understand your feeling of frustration.

    Laws exist, right from the parent federation (BWF) to the confederation (Badminton England is part of Badminton Europe Confederation), and then you have modifications that are permitted in the tourneys that the various associations hold under the auspices of the confederation. Doping is the only activity that I know in professional sporting events that will get both, the player, and many times, the support staff (coach or doctor) banned or fined. Badminton so far had eluded this scourge, but only time will tell for how long this may be avoided.

    Coaches probably have a better say in how the player develops and matures from a very young age. I know several G11 (girls under 11) from several local clubs, that use highly advanced technique of disrupting continuous play in tournaments - asking score twice when the umpire had loudly and publically said the score, asking permission to re-tie shoelaces, asking for shuttle change when the shuttle was still as good as new without even the marking of strings on the head non-existent. Would I, as an umpire, consider all this extra-curricular actitivies, merely trifling, or would I set the tone of acceptable behaviour on the court for that tournament? If I put a stop to this, and even go as far as cautioning the player, or having the coach removed (for un-lawful conduct), and other umpires do not implement similar penalties, then there is inconsistency in applying the laws, right? Think how many times, the former number 1 player from China has been called for a service fault? Only a handful of service judges so far I know. Why? A player who plays in a full round (64), will play 6 matches to finals, meaning that this player is most likely being officiated by at least 6 (six) different officiating crew (ump+sj). Do you feel that there is a consistency in applying the service laws then?

    It therefore comes down to this: can one uniformly apply the laws throughout, meaning right through the tournament, and then on the next levels, say, all international challenge tourneys, GPs, SSs, and so on. It can probably be done, but not possible to do it every time.

    Do not however let your blood boil too hot, however if I knew you, I would suggest using this as motivation to do something. Looks like you are already doing something. However, BC is not the place to get BE to act; I am almost certain the powers that are at BE do not peruse this forum, or if they read it, will not take actions that will be earth-moving.

    Here is what I know from experience to make changes. To get the best results, join the organisation, rise to the power that will permit you this change, then make certain there are many people around you who think and feel the same as you do, then propose this change and take a lawful vote on the proposal, then implement it.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    UK & the seven seas
    Posts
    244
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Great.. thank you for your very thorough advise.
    BC is a place to get the feel of other badminton players.. yes, maybe BE powers do not read BC forum but if enough true badminton fans voice their disapproval, then hopefully the power will act.. could some of the forumers bring to the attention of the BE powers that there is such a discussion here???
    or maybe make it to BBC so we can talk about real issues instead of Skirts
    I think if there is a will, thing can be change.
    If the top instruct the rules must be administered, then all the Umpires will need to take action whether it be 1 match or 1000 matches. The rule is clear as written

    I am in the opinion that if we set an example of one junior.. then we stop the rot.. yes some others will try but they know if they are caught the penalty could be severe or maybe their livelihood. if they are coach or potential professional.

    To get my self to be in the POWER of BE is really not realistic..I still have to get a group to support me on the changes if I ever get there,, by that time the rot probably gone septic and reached the heart.

    Why not ban the players .. age discrimation!!.. if you are a cheat .. you are a cheat.. there is no age limit to be a cheat.. is there?
    Punish the professional and set an example.. so the junior will not follow.. that is a good way too.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newcastle Upon Tyne,UK
    Posts
    262
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    As an U17 junior I played at this tournament, and I've seen people serving above the waist, however, I play senior league, and it's present there also. If the opposition calls it, the player usually corrects it, if there is no umpire, it is up to the other player to call it. Simple,. Some players do it by accident, however if it continues, you can call tournament referees...and they'll get someone to watch the match and thus the serves.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cal Central
    Posts
    150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skanbuzz View Post
    ...
    BC is a place to get the feel of other badminton players.. yes, maybe BE powers do not read BC forum but if enough true badminton fans voice their disapproval, then hopefully the power will act.. could some of the forumers bring to the attention of the BE powers that there is such a discussion here???
    The first part is probably correct, as I know, BCers are probably the most passionate of any sports followers and forum contributors.

    I would not be tempted to put much faith in BCers swaying BE, or any major association/confederation. If I was BE, I would point out, that even now, BCers are obsessed with discussing the old 15 point system (have a look-see at the thread and poll here (more than 1/3rd are favouring the old system, only 328 responders):
    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    BWF is on it again. there are now talks about shortening the match even further by ... ...
    Many umpires and technical officials however do read the various BC threads, and some even follow active topics during major tourneys, expecially on the various issues during matches, line-calls, warnings and cautions and faults. It is not that BCers will never be able to influence the powers that are, it is the way the forum is set up. You may recall, the change from the 15-point system to 21-PAR. A similar change was make about introducing service rule 9.1.6 - the shaft of the server’s racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction. These changes were made from input from player representatives on board with the national associations and other admin bigwigs higher on the ladder.

    But your idea about making it to BBC and all, now that sounds like a pippin!
    Something like this is what BCers would be uniformly enthusiastic about so that not only BBC but other internationall telly chaps will be keen - the ratings are based on audience popularity, right? Baddy is the second-most popular spectator sport after all, and if they can make it number one, then, so much better for them. All power to you and other BCers everywhere! Long live the revolution!

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    : 10-16-2011, 05:17 PM
  2. Shameful Hk Tv Coverage On Hong Kong Open
    By Scott Kam in forum Badminton Tournament Video Sharing
    Replies: 15
    : 11-15-2009, 08:08 PM
  3. Any improvement on the malaysian players or coaches?
    By fukusami16 in forum Malaysia Professional Players
    Replies: 2
    : 05-20-2006, 04:31 AM
  4. Rule change:coaches allowed to give advice during game
    By DaN_fAn in forum General Forum
    Replies: 6
    : 07-01-2005, 03:02 PM
  5. NEWS : coaches/players comment on INA/MAS quarterfinal
    By kwun in forum Thomas/Uber Cups 2004
    Replies: 1
    : 05-15-2004, 12:27 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •