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  1. #18
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    Hi Swingbadabada,

    Thanks for contributing too.
    Great to see a junior contributing and well done to you all who participated at the ICT

    It is annoying when you see players who try and play within the rules and compete but when you see a better player still use illegal serve to gain advantage, that really surprise me. They do not need that.
    It is very annoying when two players fought point for point but one use illegal serve.
    I also notice their coaches do not say anything too even when make know to them.

    Yes, there are a few accidental illegal serve
    Yes, majority of junior match do not have umpire and it is down to the players
    Yes, if the opponent raise the warning, some players do aware of it (that shows they know it is an illegal serve) and try to serve legally but after a while or in another match, they revert back. This is where I think coach have to step in and advise the player since they are the coach and should be correcting the player or improve the player. If the coach say nothing then the player will continue or if the coach encourage to win with any means, then the player also continue to serve illegally.
    Since most match at junior level do not have umpire, even at Open tournament, it is up to the players
    Therefore some form of disciplne must be maintained.
    How? that is why I think for the sake of the sports(Gentlemenly), coaches have a responsibility
    I seldom see any players call a referee and players just do not know what to do , they are too concerntrated on the match.
    may I ask in your junior playing carrer, how many times you have called the referee to watch your match other than dispute over a score? Most referee will settle a score and they will walk away and let the players continue.

    Yes, maybe as a parents, I am a bit "HOT HEAD" but I think something need to be addressed when there is a REAL problem
    The BBC bit is really not an option but I think let the HOUSE address the problem then we do not need to revert to OUTSIDERS

    I like to hear more contribution to this discussion and maybe see whether we can assist the POWER with some practical solution
    This should be a simple one since the rules is very clear

    If it is me, on the JUNIOR Circuit, I would write a WARNING letter to the Committee of the Shire League and inform them that they must let all counties know that this rule must be adhered.
    Letter to all BE approved coaches(registered) to warn them too and request them to correct their players.
    Letter to the Performance Centres and do the same thing
    Make it known to all players that rules must be adhere to(publish in magazine, website)

    Warn Tournament organisors that they will have to make clear to all players at the beginning of the Tournament that this rule must be adhered and they will be watching and report to BE should any players continue to ignore.

    That will be the start and how they wish to administered penalties etc will follow on after.

    Well Done Junior players, I thoroughtly enjoy the fair and friendly competition.. like ICT. enjoy the game ahead

  2. #19
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    I think taking any sort of action that is more than 'calling fault' is absurd in all honesty.

    You were talking about banning people for breaking a technical rule. Are you going to ban people for moving too early serve? overhand serve gets a ban too? What about if they 'sling shot' return? That's an instant ban too, right?

    Or how about just ban the coaches? Then they can't help any more juniors cheat.

    Maybe you should close down the centres where they play. They must surely be complicit too!

  3. #20
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    Hi,

    mmmm.mmm. looks like we will have to teach all the players to call "fault" and then what?.. players disagree and stop the match, let the tournament organisor sort it out?

    so there are no clear solution to resolve these

    It is okay to sit a wait and continue to let it happen? or as I said.. looks like we will have to join them

    What would you suggest?

    Do you deliberately serve illegally or approved of this action with the juniors?

    If your 6 years old son or daughter like to kick the neighbour's cat everytime he/she see it and also like to hit the boys and girls at school and the playground, would you let it continue? or it is okay , they need to learn to be strong and survival, be confident and be a natural leader.

    Is it parents fault for not stopping it? or maybe it is not parents should be dealing with it but it is the teacher and head master responsibilties or is it the police or local community who should be dealing with it.
    mmm.mmmm...or should the parents take the first step to stop it.

    Could we help to make the system better? even if you do not ban the players, or coaches or the institution, what can you suggest should be done about it? I am sure this is not just a UK problem but if we take the lead, we might have some good suggestion for others to follow.

    maybe I have said too much.. and just live with it.mmmm.mmm let the bullies continue.. it does not affect me.. not for now anyway..

  4. #21
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    mmm.mmm....mmm?

  5. #22
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    As a junior as well, i have noticed that some players will try and break the rules when playing people they do not know. Like for example breaking serving rules, it hasnt happened to me as yet, but there has only been one occasion in which i have to call the referee over argument about the score.

    I have to say from what i have seen, the english players tend to be Slightly worse for service from what i have seen of them at Gold/Gold Star graded events.

    Btw swingbadabada, are you playing silver/gold/gold star ?

  6. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LD rules! View Post
    You can't ban the players for life, especially if they are juniors. If they are playing a game with a umpire, and they have an illegal serve with the umpire not calling it, then it is the umpires fault. Professionals test the rules all the time, juniors just copy the pros at the end of the day. You can maybe fine coaches, but that's about it.
    I rather think the call for banning was to provoke a reaction amongst posters.

    IMHO, I would think having an umpire or two to judge the service should be called for in a match. In fact, what would be rather good would be a tournament rule for a fixed proportion of the matches to have a service judge (up to q/finals) and that this would be randomly applied to matches without the the players or coaches knowing beforehand.

    Why not all the matches? Because resources are limited for lesser tournaments.

  7. #24
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    Cheung,

    thanks

    that is a good suggestion and practical too.
    For the sake of the game and fair play to all, random umpires/referee should go to the tournaments and judge
    maybe even stand away from the match and watch & judge and either stop the play if a players constantly use illegal serve or officailly warn them after the match. I say stand away from the match because a lot of players when under microscope, they behave but once no one watching, they revert back.
    Warn their respective representative too eg coaches, managers etc

    Hope this not just apply to senior tournament only but juniors too so curd the rot at the roots.
    I like that
    What do other think? can BE or badminton Power apply this?

  8. #25
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    Interesting. While coaches should point out to players if they are serving illegally they cannot be held responisble for the actions of the players. The tournament organisers however should monitor these sort of infringments. At a high junior level there is not much of a problem with fault serves as the players are more likely to be umpired or under closer observation. I have been to an u13 circuit event this year where a coach scored a final in which a player didn't make 1 legal serve and won the tournament, apparantly that coach thinks its not necessary to correct at that age!

    It is the players jobs to push the rules and it is the officials job to see the rules are not broken. If my player was serving well below the legal limit I would encourage him to raise the shuttle to gain as much advantage as legally posible.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skanbuzz View Post
    Cheung,

    thanks

    that is a good suggestion and practical too.
    For the sake of the game and fair play to all, random umpires/referee should go to the tournaments and judge
    maybe even stand away from the match and watch & judge and either stop the play if a players constantly use illegal serve or officailly warn them after the match. I say stand away from the match because a lot of players when under microscope, they behave but once no one watching, they revert back.
    Warn their respective representative too eg coaches, managers etc

    Hope this not just apply to senior tournament only but juniors too so curd the rot at the roots.
    I like that
    What do other think? can BE or badminton Power apply this?
    What you suggest is still impractical. The ideal is to have a service judge at every match. Resources do not allow this except for final rounds. I do not believe watching the service from afar and warning the player afterwards is of any benefit.

    If the service judge sees an illegal serve, the server is faulted. If it happens again, the server loses another point and so on. That goes on until the match is lost. I think that is a lesson in itself.

    If they behave on their service, then already the service judge has served his purpose and the games is more equal.

    If the player has an intention to serve illegally, but then at the start, a service judge appears (from random allocation), then the psychological advantage goes to the better server. If both intended to serve illegally, then things are still even!!

  10. #27
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    Hi,

    I understand resources is an issue that is why at random and at afar to catch these players out.
    but there must be a will to do so.
    If the authority randomly send unmarked umpire around and spot from afar, the players or their "coach" or coach that encourage player to push/test the rules to the limit do not know who is at the scene and when.
    If caught, then some sort of penalties is administrated.. maybe deduct ranking points or forfeit their winning or even deduct as many points they won and so move there ranking in reverse
    then the player suffer or penalised and their coach/manager also receive warning from the authority..if continue to illegal test the rules and caught many times.. maybe heavier penalties.... coaches should have responsibilities too

    I do not agree with dlp approach to the game.
    that way of thinking is just pushing the responsibilty to others and winning mean everything to them..we all want to win but there are no respect or pride if won with cheating and I am sure as a coach.. you might feel the mini second of greatness but deep inside you know you have not achieve the greatness you deserve... but then cheaters will always be cheaters until they are humiliated in public then they will know that cheats do not pay... still I think the authority needs to take the 1st step on this issue and not let it get out of hand.... test to the limit..mmm..mm let us see whether we can bully the boy who stand alone in the class.. no body catch us.. we get away.. next time we ask him for money.. if no money .. kick his ass.. next time we ask him to steal from his parents so we can enjoy fish and chips...where will this lead to?
    if a girl who knows and saw all these happening but do not tell .. what happen if the boy hang himself because he does not want to steal and yet do not know where to turn?.. silent is not a solution

    I might seems heavy handed but I like to hear other proposals to resolve this or attempt to tackle this problem? let us hear it.
    There are lots of coaches and knowlegible people on this forum.. please contribute let argue the pros and cons so the evetual solution will hopefully be a success.

  11. #28
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    If it is up to me.. I will stay BAND the players for life.. band the coaches for life.. Penalise the institution with heavy fine.. that will set an example and in future anyone who try it know that they could be band for life if caught..
    I think you need to keep this in perspective. At the moment you're raging about the unjustness of it all, and advocating draconian punishment to satiate your rage. That way madness lies.

    I believe coaches should not teach their players to "push the rules". Players should learn attitudes of fair play; they should not see a lack of court officials as an opportunity to cheat. Coaches should set a good example here; in my experience, most coaches do. Unfortunately a few coaches take the attitude that "being a competitor is about bending the rules".

    To be clear: players should be taught to serve from just below the waist (lowest rib). We want our players to develop serves that are effective and legal.

    In an ideal world, every tournament game would have a full set of court officials. Heck, why not have them at club nights too? And for my birthday, I would like a space shuttle, please.

    The most important issue is education. BE could certainly help here, by sending out a clear message to coaches and players (easily done: email all the coaches; put a short article in the coaches' and players' magazines). Specifically, they could address the self-styled "maverick" coachs' misconception that players should take advantage when the rules are not being enforced.

    This kind of rule-breaking really does harm the game. At its worst, it puts our young players in a situation where they must either cheat or lose. It also causes drive serves (and their returns) to dominate players' skill development. This is harmful because players then neglect the low and flick serves (and returns).

    There still needs to be some process for dealing with players who flout the rules. I would suggest educating players and parents about calling for the tournament referee: when is it appropriate, and how do you do it? BE could perhaps help tournament organisers by providing clear guidance about how to manage the problem of players breaking the rules (I don't know what guidance is currently provided).
    Last edited by Gollum; 06-01-2011 at 05:16 AM.

  12. #29
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    And to put in a reality check : at the recent dutch national junior championships (U13-U19) there were no service judges, let alone line judges for the finals even ...

  13. #30
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    Although this is all about fair play, I think this also goes beyond badminton and extends into the attitude of the heart and moral compass of the person.

    If they feel they can "bend" the rules on something so simple, then I'm quite sure it is not that far down the slippery slope to compromises in other aspects of their lives, especially when they think that no one is looking or checking. Such as under reporting income to reduce the taxes they have to pay. Infidelity and adultery when they think they are "beyond" the laws that apply to other people. Copy and pasting other people's work to pass as your own work. You get the picture.
    Last edited by visor; 06-01-2011 at 04:10 PM.

  14. #31
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    Hi Gollum

    Thanks

    great to see you contribute in this discussion

    I agree that I seems raging..ahead lucky I did and I got a good response from you.. and we respect your effort in improving the badminton for all

    Let other feed in and we all try to make some sense so that the authority can have something to guide them

    I am very impressed with demolidor that the dutch national junior (over such a vast age groups) did not have a single problem or players flout the rules.. well done... AND without any umpire or linesmen...could you let us know how and what you all did to achive this? we all need to learn. lets have it.. what do you all say?

    "I believe coaches should not teach their players to "push the rules". Players should learn attitudes of fair play; they should not see a lack of court officials as an opportunity to cheat. Coaches should set a good example here; in my experience, most coaches do. Unfortunately a few coaches take the attitude that "being a competitor is about bending the rules". I agreed

    "The most important issue is education. BE could certainly help here, by sending out a clear message to coaches and players (easily done: email all the coaches; put a short article in the coaches' and players' magazines). Specifically, they could address the self-styled "maverick" coachs' misconception that players should take advantage when the rules are not being enforced." - yes.. hands up

    "This kind of rule-breaking really does harm the game. At its worst, it puts our young players in a situation where they must either cheat or lose. It also causes drive serves (and their returns) to dominate players' skill development. " - agree too.. spoilt all the hard work and they development of rally point to attract viewer and participation.

    "BE could perhaps help tournament organisers by providing clear guidance about how to manage the problem of players breaking the rules (I don't know what guidance is currently provided). " yeah.. two hands up

    any others suggestions?
    any official here who can contribute too?

    thanks

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    No umpire and no service judges in tournament

    and no earlier warnings, all hell break loose

    This is natural among players including the young

    And with the parents and coaches around?

    It makes no different, let me just give you all an example:

    Player 1 serve illegal to player 2 and when player 2 sees the advantages,

    he or she will follows the same then player 2's coach tells his player

    that is not the service I teach you. What would player 2 says?

    "I will be dumb if I continue to let him get away with such easy points"

    Is player 2 right? And would his coach keep reminding to do a legal serve?

    I say 95% won't and this has happened many places not just your area

    So inform the organizer of such occurrences

    and forget about banning players or coaches

  16. #33
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    And to put in a reality check : at the recent dutch national junior championships (U13-U19) there were no service judges, let alone line judges for the finals even ...
    Should add this was to illustrate the difficulty in enforcing/monitoring/checking whatchamay call it, not that illegal serves were rampant
    And indeed, although I wasn't there from early mornings to late late in the evening I haven't noticed any complaints about high serves. Of course there were 15 courts in play so paying attention to everything from up in the stands is a big ask ... For the (semi)finals though just the 4 courts on the second day ...
    Of course most if not all of these players are in county selections and junior national teams so I'm sure attention to serving correctly and legally has past the revue before.
    Last edited by demolidor; 06-01-2011 at 05:25 PM.

  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skanbuzz View Post
    Hi,

    I understand resources is an issue that is why at random and at afar to catch these players out.
    but there must be a will to do so.
    If the authority randomly send unmarked umpire around and spot from afar, the players or their "coach" or coach that encourage player to push/test the rules to the limit do not know who is at the scene and when.
    If caught, then some sort of penalties is administrated.. maybe deduct ranking points or forfeit their winning or even deduct as many points they won and so move there ranking in reverse
    then the player suffer or penalised and their coach/manager also receive warning from the authority..if continue to illegal test the rules and caught many times.. maybe heavier penalties.... coaches should have responsibilities too
    This method is weak and open to challenge. If you try to penalise a player after the game has finished, I can easily argue the observer was positioned incorrectly (because not observing from courtside without distraction. T'fore, there is reasonable doubt on the claim of foul service.

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