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  1. #1
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Default BWF New Tournament Refereeing Rule?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7hQv6bIi-w

    Is this a new rule using TV playback?

    If so this is going to be one helluva precedence for players to follow.

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    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    What the heck? Was there ever any doubt that it was out? it was so blatantly out by 3 inches!
    That lines lady needs new glasses, seriously!

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    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    is there a rule that says the referee cannot use the tv replay?

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    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    As far as I've known, I've never seen umpires or referees use video replays to decide when there's a questionable call. This is the first time I've seen.

    Perhaps in the process of updating to the modern times and trying to increase tv viewership (eg. ladies skirt rule), BWF has started to implement video replays, if the player asks for it...
    Last edited by visor; 05-10-2011 at 05:21 AM.

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    Hmm BWF might be running tests on using this option for the referee in certain tournaments.
    But it is one bad call both from the line judge and from the umpire that should have no problem seeing this was clearly out, and the unpire should have looked at the service judge who, if he was a good service judge, would have discretly indicatet that the shuttle was way out.

    /Krysser

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    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up It's about time for Badminton to use instant video replay

    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7hQv6bIi-w

    Is this a new rule using TV playback?

    If so this is going to be one helluva precedence for players to follow.
    .
    It's about time for Badminton to use instant video replay.

    However, each player should get a fixed number of challenges per game to review bad line calls. If the player is correct, then the player retains the same number of challenges. If the player is wrong, then one of the player's challenges is lost. Tennis implemented this system 5 years ago, back in 2006.

    I think here is an opportunity to help officials when there is a dispute in line calls.
    .

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    isn't the rule 'umpire may only overrule if they can see that a clear error has been made (by line judge)'

    that rule does actually allow tv replay, as long as the umpire can see the screen well enough!

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    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Who says they used instant replay?? I don't see the referee watch any screen. He could just as well simple have been watching the match, it was so far out anyone could have seen it (except the lj that wasn't paying attention, unlike other forummers in the past would have you believe they are infallible in which case incidents like these can never happen )
    The commentator sounds clueless; the umpire doesn't even have tv in the little computer. Unless there is a big screen in the stadium I fail to see instant replay being used ... (didn't follow the tournament at all so perhaps one of the visitors already commented on it in the tournament thread)
    Last edited by demolidor; 05-10-2011 at 08:32 AM.

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    I fail to see that instant replay being used. I guess the umpire probably told the referee about the shot and she believes it's out. As an umpire, unless I clearly saw that shot, I would have no choice but to give the Chinese shuttler the bird. If I didn't make that call immediately then I clearly did not see it well enough from the umpire chair to overrule the call. As harsh as that sounds, that is an unwritten rule umpires usually follow. There's no changing your mind 5 points later, and going oh wait, I think that shot was out. It's either call it immediately or don't call it at all.

    As for replay system, I believe I read somewhere that deputy president Paisan Rangsikitpho was thinking of putting in a replay system for testing in the near future. I believe they MAY start as soon as the 2012 olympics. I'm not sure how far that is going on, but I read it somewhere about a year ago.

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    When such horrible line calls are being made at the professional level, I really think it's time for instant replay. That wasn't even a smash, so there was plenty of time to observe it. Calls like this one and perhaps this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCdUgLuRTF8

    Human error, combined with the speed of the game and the need for precision, really ask for a better way of judging calls. Instant replay is now being used in so many major sports, I think badminton has much to gain from it.

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    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Agreed. BWF should leave it's prehistoric past behind and start using instant replays. I believe that stadium did not have a jumbo screen, but if it did, can you imagine the uproar from the spectators in that stadium?

    That lines lady actually believed that bird land in!
    Perhaps she thought this was a doubles game...

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    put it this way, I would not like to get into a fight with Saina, looks like she could beat up anyone when she is enraged

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    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Question Looks like Saina could beat up anyone when she is enraged

    Quote Originally Posted by LD rules! View Post
    put it this way, I would not like to get into a fight with Saina, looks like she could beat up anyone when she is enraged
    .
    When you talk to and/or look at Saina's smile, she is sweet.

    But don't give her a Badminton racket, because she will beat you up into pieces.

    Seriously, Saina is a gentle and a down-to-earth person. I say this because I have met up with her before, and I have found her a nice person.
    .

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    Default BWF New Tournament Refereeing Rule? replay rumour mill keeps churning

    Quote Originally Posted by CantSmashThis View Post
    I fail to see that instant replay being used. I guess the umpire probably told the referee about the shot and she believes it's out. As an umpire, unless I clearly saw that shot, I would have no choice but to give the Chinese shuttler the bird. If I didn't make that call immediately then I clearly did not see it well enough from the umpire chair to overrule the call. As harsh as that sounds, that is an unwritten rule umpires usually follow. ... It's either call it immediately or don't call it at all.

    As for replay system, I believe I read somewhere that ... about a year ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    isn't the rule 'umpire may only overrule if they can see that a clear error has been made (by line judge)'

    that rule does actually allow tv replay, as long as the umpire can see the screen well enough!
    Fellows, Fellows, the umpire's ruling is bound by Law 17.5 <pp 13>, which states clearly: "An official’s decision shall be final on all points of fact for which that official is responsible except that if, in the opinion of the umpire, it is beyond reasonable doubt that a line judge has clearly made a wrong call, the umpire shall overrule the decision of the line judge."

    As a matter of good practice, a correction will be made by the umpire immediately as this will seem more acceptable to the player(s). In case of correcting court-errors (generally in doubles), the correction will be made before the restart (service).

    In this case, it looks like the Indian girl most likely blocked the view of the umpire, that is the umpire became 'unsighted' (remember, the camera angle and perspective is not the same as that of the umpire, or the line judge). The umpire therefore could not have had any reasonable doubt to overrule the line official's call. And since any good umpire worth their scoring sheet, should never be influenced by the sweetness or tantrums of any player (or coach) for the match where s/he is in charge, the umpire had awarded the point to the Chinese girl.

    Furthermore, the recommendations to officials <pp 4>, also clarifies how to carry out those responsibilities

    3.4 Line calls

    3.4.1 The umpire shall always look to the line judge(s) when the shuttle lands close to a line and always when the shuttle lands out, however far. The line judge shall be entirely responsible for the decision except Recommendation 3.4.2 below.

    3.4.2 If, in the opinion of the umpire, it is beyond reasonable doubt, a line judge has clearly made a wrong call, the umpire shall call:

    3.4.2.1 “Correction, IN”, if the shuttle has landed “in”; or
    3.4.2.2 “Correction, OUT”, if the shuttle has landed “out”


    Now, as the umpire reports to the referee (Law 17.2), it appeared that the umpire referred this matter of unsatisfied appeal by the Indian player to the pony-tailed chief in red (the referee). This was also appropriate and is described by Law 17.6.8. Apparently, the chief instructed the umpire (as succintly mentioned earlier by Cantsmashthis), and the umpire followed those instructions - in this case, awarding the point to the Indian.

    As to the question about using replays to make corrections, this has to be made absolutely clear prior to the registration for the tourney. This was not the case in this 2011 Malaysian GP. And from the website, neither has the BWF started any experiments on this yet.

    And just like any other changes in the match, as when the umpire will make the short service call when no short service line judge is appointed, any such change pertaining to tv replay will be also made known to the players prior to the start of the match. Was this the case in this tourney?

    [O yeah, since this forum is also read in the USofA, giving someone the bird is the equivalent of the one finger greeting, and is considered very naughty.]
    Last edited by 2wheels04; 05-13-2011 at 02:49 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9VtNZXrqs

    Watch this classic and see how this dispute can be exploited by players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9VtNZXrqs

    Watch this classic and see how this dispute can be exploited by players.
    Good find, Bbn! Yes, tactics by definition are by design, and probably have been part of the game ever since organised games began. Say, do you have any more in your library?

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Just tell me specifically what you want to watch. If its not available elsewhere it will probably be available here.

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