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  1. #35
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    Because the backswing is the external force..

  2. #36
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    I dont think so. backswing is self generated. not external. and back swing for backhand is VERY minimal - it's merely placing the arm in position! Then comes elbow out etc etc, all part of the stroke, not back swing
    Last edited by amleto; 05-21-2011 at 10:34 AM.

  3. #37
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    External means outside of the joint. By that definition you are saying pronating your arm with your other hand isn't eccentric because it's self generated . Anyone who knows anything about generating power knows that you need to use stretch shortening cycles. Just because it looks minimal doesn't mean it's not there. Think about how you generate power in a forehand, then you will see the similarities.

  4. #38
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    what is external to the joint that affects pronation (specifically during'backswing')?

    you said backswing is 'external' - how is it? Even if it is, how does this create stretching of the muscle under tension?

    You are being very indirect.
    Last edited by amleto; 05-21-2011 at 11:15 AM.

  5. #39
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    Oh, now I understand what you mean by concentric and eccentric. By backswing you generate a force and then counter it with foreswing to generate more acceleration (because of more force), hence loading more energy into your pronation, which is impossible by concentric pronation. It's somewhat similar to using a head-heavy flex racket. The acceleration of racket loads extra energy into the shaft and unleashes at the moment of impact. And again, that's how ppl keep referring to a whipping action. Now it's all clear to me that I normally do backswing too early, wasting energy for nothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    by self, I meant that the arm/shoulder does it by itself

    what is external to the joint that affects pronation (specifically during'backswing')?
    Lifting of your arm by the shoulder.

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenzo View Post
    Lifting of your arm by the shoulder.
    I don't see how that can cause any significant pronation. It must be relying on the rackets inertia? Because it doesnt seem like it will cause any tension in the muscles to do with pronation...

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    Read what khoai said, he's got it spot on. That's correct, and the inertia of your forearm. That's why they say the stronger you are, the heavier the racket you use.

  9. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoai View Post
    Oh, now I understand what you mean by concentric and eccentric. By backswing you generate a force and then counter it with foreswing to generate more acceleration (because of more force), hence loading more energy into your pronation, which is impossible by concentric pronation. It's somewhat similar to using a head-heavy flex racket. The acceleration of racket loads extra energy into the shaft and unleashes at the moment of impact. And again, that's how ppl keep referring to a whipping action. Now it's all clear to me that I normally do backswing too early, wasting energy for nothing
    For only 9 posts, you demonstrate an excellent understanding of what kenzo is saying! Especially the last sentence in bold.

  10. #44
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    What kenzo is saying re eccentric contraction of muscles is really about prestretching or preloading the muscle fibres just before concentric contraction in order to maximize power and speed from the muscle fibres.

    That is how the split step in badminton works for your thigh and calf muscles.

    That is how it works for Olympic weight-lifters when they allow the weight to drop a bit before actually lifting it.

  11. #45
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    so it's nothing to do with the shoulder then

    you start to pronate, then when pronation has some momentum, you start suppination. thats all bicep/tricep/forearm - nothing to do with the shoulder!

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    That's like saying your legs have nothing to do with your smash. Try smashing with no legs. Go on, I dare you.

  13. #47
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    btw, kenzo, how do you know so much about human physiology and kinesiology?
    are you a physiotherapist or kinesiologist?

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    Nah, I just pick up things from reading random stuff

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    no, it's not at all. My original question is about how pronation can be eccentric - your explanation was 'its the shoulder from backswing'. Which I just vehemently disagreed with. you are continually moving goal posts and attempting to baffle with ********. well, it aint washing with me.

    The saying 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' seems quite apt here. You clearly have some knowledge and adept in at least some technical language, but when questioned on specifics you deflect and can't give accurate answers. It appears that you don't know where the limits of your knowledge are, and wont admit to as much when posed questions that it is apparant you can't adequately answer.


    adieu.
    Last edited by amleto; 05-21-2011 at 07:39 PM.

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    Haha. No, firstly I explained how a pronation can be eccentric. Then you were confused about how the pronation is eccentric in a backswing for a backhand shot and what external force acts upon the elbow join in order to cause eccentric pronation, to which I said the shoulder. You could explain why that makes no sense to you, but I guess you'd rather play ring a ring o' roses with me. The full explanation of the backswing is to do with proximal-distal sequences, but I don't think explaining it will help your confusion.

  17. #51
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    amletto, for someone who is trying to learn from another person, being a bit less antagonistic would be helpful...

    what kenzo is trying to explain to you (which you have to admit is no easy task on a forum without visual aids or pictures), is that the weight of the racket, hand and arm will stretch (ie. eccentric contract) the supinators on the relaxed backswing just simply from gravity acting the arm. Just like the pronators are eccentrically contracted ie stretched on the relaxed backswing for the forehand smash.

    noticed i said relaxed, because only then can the muscle fibres be preloaded
    Last edited by visor; 05-21-2011 at 07:56 PM.

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