I got sand bagged!!!

[raymond]

I have seen this and i can honestly say, if the field is big enough, it takes too long. I believe the reason there are grades is so there is no need for this preliminary ranking, and the matches can flow faster. With a First round that big, it would take a few hours.

Not sure why this is so, as you can have single knock-out immediately after the 1st round. This would be very similar to the main draw dropping to consolation round. In other words, in both formats, a player is guaranteed 2 matches.

[chris-ccc]

I don't think this really is a big issue. If a player traveled far to play in a tournament, he typically would be the more ambitious type. I doubt he would sandbag his way just to win. Anyhow, he might still play two flights, as he's not sure exact level(s) of the local players.

Back to here in the Bay Area, a D-level tournament is usually quite crowded, consisting of easily 5 rounds (or some 32 people). If the OP gets to the 3rd round and runs into a sandbagger, it'd be 1 in 4 chances (as there'd be 4 matches in the 3rd round), assuming there's one sandbagger in that level at that tournament. And if he runs into the sandbagger in the 2nd round, it'd be 1 in 8. That's why I say, just keep playing tournament, and you can also work out the issue statistically.

After all, you can also look at the whole thing this way. If you already know he's sandbagging, you can find out how you're doing by comparing scores you can get from him, and how other competitors fare against him. You may not ultimately get the D-level trophy, but you can kinda get a sense of where you stand, I think. Wouldn't that be enough?

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Actually, I am more sorry for the victims, than angry against the sandbaggers.

I am experienced enough to grade a player by just having a few strokes with him/her, or by just watching his/her play. I have been in Badminton for decades, although I took 5 years off to play competition Table Tennis.

Now, I am a Badminton coach. And I have always encouraged my trainees to participate in our 'Graded' tournaments (in Melbourne, they are our 'Fun' tournaments).

Winning or losing should be of lesser importance than to enjoy their experience.

But, many times trainees returned to say that there wasn't any enjoyment that they have experienced. They get a bitter experience/taste of seeing how sandbaggers operate.

Let me quote what one first-timer (a D-Grader) has said;

I could see that there were several players in D grade also played in C grade in the same event, which is fine. The issue is, how come those players were more competitive in C grade as supposed to D grade? and i don't mean it in a positive way, these players lost in their D grade event significantly, yet the were able to win a few games in C grade. Why??? because people lowered themselves to D grade and skipped the other grades alltogether. D grade became tougher than C grade. this is outrageous....

And some players even overheard some sandbaggers boasting that they have won so many lower grades tournaments trophies, year after year. Some even take photos of their trophies to show others. I just could not understand how they could be proud of themselves if they decide to be stuck at lower levels/grades over the years.

Anyway, as I have mentioned; our 'Graded' tournaments results are now posted at tournamentsoftware.com; so participants can get to see how sandbaggers operate and wishing to spoil the enjoyment of our 'Fun' tournaments for others.
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[arturosauce]

I feel like the following rules should be mandatory for badminton tournaments (I've never entered a tournament, so I don't know if these rules are in place or not):

1. If players are going to enter the same event (singles, doubles, mixed) but in different skill levels (A/Open, B, C, and D), then that player is NOT allowed to skip levels (i.e., that player cannot enter B singles and D singles, because he/she would be skipping C). The player can, however, skip levels of different events (i.e., a player entering B singles can enter D doubles or mixed. Skipping C is allowed because it is not in the same event).

2. A player cannot enter the same event (singles, doubles, mixed) in more than two levels (A/Open, B, C, and D). This means if a person chooses to enter two levels, they must choose between A/B, B/C, or C/D.

3. Given that you cannot skip levels, if a player who has entered in two levels of the same event (for example, has entered B and C for singles) and has reached QUARTERFINALS of the higher bracket (in this case, the B level), then that player is immediately disqualified from the lower level (in this case, the C level) bracket regardless of their current position in that bracket. This rule should serve as a deterrent for those naughty sandbaggers/trophy hunters to think twice before entering.



Alternatively, I would also like to see more tournaments with a combination of both round-robin play and a double-elimination bracket. For example, once the tournament organizers have confirmed their final list of entries, the players are then seeded (to the best of the organizer’s knowledge/ability) and placed into pools of 5 (can be more or less, depending on the total amount of entries) and start out in a round-robin format. The top two players in each pool then advance into the main double-elimintation bracket where tournament play would continue as we normally understand it. At least this way, the least-skilled players in the tournament are guaranteed a decent amount of matches and have the chance to play a larger variety of opponents. Some people enter tournaments to gain experience, and a guaranteed good number of matches is worth their money.


Any thoughts?

[BaddyGary]

I have seen this and i can honestly say, if the field is big enough, it takes too long. I believe the reason there are grades is so there is no need for this preliminary ranking, and the matches can flow faster. With a First round that big, it would take a few hours.

Over here in Aussie there are some tournaments that start with combines A&B and C&D grades ..... They put contestants in pools of 3 and the winner of the pool plays the top grade, second in the pool plays the lower grade and the loser's tournament is over -- Players are then put into new pools of 3 and the winners of those pools play a knock-out format to find the winner.
The tournament I am director of uses the 4 grades - we set a maximum of 24 entrants per grade meaning 8 pools of 3 -- winners of the pools advance to quarter finals then semis then a final so the winner has to win 5 matches.

[BaddyGary]

If players are going to enter the same event (singles, doubles, mixed) but in different skill levels (A/Open, B, C, and D), then that player is NOT allowed to skip levels (i.e., that player cannot enter B singles and D singles, because he/she would be skipping C). The player can, however, skip levels of different events (i.e., a player entering B singles can enter D doubles or mixed. Skipping C is allowed because it is not in the same event).

A general rule in Victoria Australia is that players entering more than 1 level -(grade) can only enter adjacent grades......we also attempt to stop any-one with any ranking points (only obtained in OPEN events) entering below B grade. Most of the larger tournaments are run on 2 days and usually run say A & C on one day and B & D on another -- and I usually warn players in the tournaments I run that if they make the final in the higher grade the day before the lower grade is played they will be removed from the lower grade.....It's happened once but the higher grade was played the day after the lower grade so the same pair won both grades -- needless to say they were promoted the next year.
By the way do any of you guys use the tournamentsoftware.com site and its software to help run your tournaments -- I find it a great help in draws in that I can usually avoid two players from the same club meeting in the first round and/or pool.

[Robbo77]

Oh we thought you complained to the administrator and had it deleted? Vien got banned from BC, so guessing others complained.

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IMHO, all D-Grade (or the lowest grade) players should be players who have not won anything before.

Actually there is a BC thread (Australian), started 2 weeks ago, about participants sandbagging at a Melbourne tournament. I tried to find that thread to let American BCers read what Australian BCers think. But somehow, that thread has gone missing; I couldn't find that thread anymore.
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[Robbo77]

The worst trophy hunter must be this guy, who recently said:

The title favourite however must be Lin Dan, currentWorld n° 3, who’s already looking forward to the Singapore Open.

“It’s for sure a tournament I want to win and add to mycollection of trophies. Singapore is also somewhere I’d like to visit, the foodis good, people are friendly and the place is very clean,” Lin explained on thetournament’s website.

[chris-ccc]

ok. so i have undeleted but locked the thread. it will be viewable but no more replies will be possible.

Thanks for doing that kwun

American BCers can now read some of the solutions suggested/offered there;

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...iton-21-22-May

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Oh no... Did another moderator delete this thread again?

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...iton-21-22-May

Now it says again "Invalid Forum specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator" ???
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[raymond]

3. Given that you cannot skip levels, if a player who has entered in two levels of the same event (for example, has entered B and C for singles) and has reached QUARTERFINALS of the higher bracket (in this case, the B level), then that player is immediately disqualified from the lower level (in this case, the C level) bracket regardless of their current position in that bracket. This rule should serve as a deterrent for those naughty sandbaggers/trophy hunters to think twice before entering.

This could be an interesting idea, though this still won't stop someone from sandbagging to lower level in order to guarantee a win.
I got a feeling that round robin is a format that takes too long, though it can help promote fairness in determining the real ranking.

[khoai]

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Oh no... Did another moderator delete this thread again?

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...iton-21-22-May

Now it says again "Invalid Forum specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator" ???
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Kwun doesn't seem to be happy lately. He did delete a couple of threads/posts and ban a couple of nicks too. I just happened to be browsing the forums at the time.

[chris-ccc]

Kwun doesn't seem to be happy lately. He did delete a couple of threads/posts and ban a couple of nicks too. I just happened to be browsing the forums at the time.

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Well, the thread that I am referring to was deleted at first. It was then brought back as a 'LOCKED' thread (so that no more postings can be made into it).

Perhaps the 'LOCKED' thread was deleted again because I posted in another thread this post;

There goes another thread 'LOCKED';

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...iton-21-22-May

This time I have myself caught with trolls, before I exited that thread late (perhaps too late).

Hope that kwun can explain why that thread was deleted again. Or, was there another request from another BCer to delete it?
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[kwun]

it was deemed that the thread revealed too much personal information to be remained viewable. there are some good discussions in the beginning but quickly degraded to personal attacks. at this point it will remained deleted until the mods have time and energy to go through the pages of it and moderate out stuff, if that's even possible.

[chris-ccc]

it was deemed that the thread revealed too much personal information to be remained viewable. there are some good discussions in the beginning but quickly degraded to personal attacks. at this point it will remained deleted until the mods have time and energy to go through the pages of it and moderate out stuff, if that's even possible.

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OK, Thanks kwun.

This will teach us BCers to check twice before posting.

Talk about the issue and try not to get off topic.

Perhaps just retain the first half of the thread.
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[Rainofserenity]

I know a few people who sandbagged but got sandbagged.. Now, it really comes down to who sandbagged better?

Anyways, can't really measure. SoCal and Norcal are diffferent. I remember someone saying that Socal is ranked 1 above Norcal.. like normal A player in Norcal is prolly B level in Socal. Eitherway, Age group tournament is a bit better, but discourage some players to play because different in levels is too wide..

[BadFever]

it was deemed that the thread revealed too much personal information to be remained viewable. there are some good discussions in the beginning but quickly degraded to personal attacks. at this point it will remained deleted until the mods have time and energy to go through the pages of it and moderate out stuff, if that's even possible.

You should consider banning(temporarily/permanently) those who posted other people's full name with inappropriate remark.

[Cheung]

You should consider banning(temporarily/permanently) those who posted other people's full name with inappropriate remark.

We do not encourage public comments on the issue of banning individual members. If there are issues, then please direct to the moderators.

Thank you

[tecdecs]

1st i would like to say i believe if someone wins C level in an certain event they they should not be allowed to play D in the same event anymore.

it would be hard to do a ranking system because there are just too many variables... what IF an D level player plays with an B level player and the B level player carries the D level and wins the B... so now are we saying that D level player can not play B level so that means they can only play A?

If we say the D level was a girl who played mix then later she plays D mix with another guy whos D level and they win 2nd place! Are we going to say they are sand baggers? i wouldnt call her a sand bagger because maybe when she won B the guy really covered her and she didnt even win D.

Now lets say the D level was a guy who won B doubles, whos now playing with another D level guy and they win 2nd place in D... do we consider him a sandbagger?