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View Poll Results: Did IBF make the correct decision in postponing the World Championships?

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  • yes. postponing WC was a good decision

    32 50.79%
  • no. WC should have been held as scheduled.

    31 49.21%
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  1. #69
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Default Improvement

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  2. #70
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re: Kia-su, Kia-si, Kia-sars!!!

    Originally posted by Cheung


    I don't understand your logic with the IBF compared to the University. The University allows students in because the University knows more about the disease than the IBF!! The BAofE took the advice of health authorities - a highly responsible action. The IBF? We don't know if they consulted any other health authorities. We need the minutes of their meeting.

    BTW, WHO is an advisory alert. It doesn't say you must not go to affected countries unless there was a very good reason. You are only advised not to go. There's no reverse policy. Companies who enforce a 10 day quarantine of their employees do so out of their own company policy. Not because the WHO advises so..... [/B]
    Cheung

    What I meant was that the University in question should not have barred Asian students from joining but should admit those deserving by conducting a thorough Sars examination. It can do this test and take other precautionary measures if need be as it can control the intake and admission process. Indeed, you are right in saying that the University should certainly know more about Sars than the IBF and that is why I think Asian students should not be deprived and possibly having to wait for another semester before they have a chance to gain entry. I briefly read the university has since relented and I am much relieved for the sake of our Asian students who hail from Sars-infected countries.

    One has to understand the different role of the IBF whose main tasks are to develop the badminton game worldwide and to provide entertainment. Compared with an academic institution like the university, I think the IBF's responsibilty is less onerous in this case as by postponing the WC as it will not affect the livelihood of players and spectators alike. In fact, some of them may prefer to give the WC a miss rather than run the risk of being infected by Sars. I think the IBF must have consulted the authorities before arriving at its painful decision. One must also try to understand the circumstances under which they are compelled to come up with such a decision, which I'm sure is not something they love to do. The Sars outbreak came suddenly. Little is known about the virus. And fears abound worldwide. Meanwhile the WC deadline is drawing ever closer. It ruins their plans, causes a great deal of misunderstanding with sponsors, players, fans, suppliers, vendors, helpers, fellow badminton associations, etc. Then they are forced to fix another more appropriate date and renegotiate with the many parties once again. Who would want all these to happen if he can help it?

    But when we are given the information and warnings that innocent lives can be taken away by Sars if things do not go according to plan, when people break the rules and try to circumvent the existing order, then we need to pause and decide whether it is worth the while sticking to the original plans. Should we change them till we are more sure about further developments? The death of just one life as a consequence of holding the WC as originally planned would have put the IBF in extremely bad light.

    Yes, the WHO dishes out advice as a matter of good faith and it is entirely up to the individuals and countries to make their own decision. Unfortunately, many who do not heed perish as evidenced in countries like China and Taiwan in particular. Sars has changed attitudes, lifestlyes, perceptions, etc and even the meaning of democracy. If democracy means to some people that you can do anything you like, that you have a right to liberty and freedom, then people's perception has since changed after the advent of Sars. If you are a Sars victim, you just can't go about infecting others through your behaviour (like spitting, coughing, etc) and claim it as your "right". A Sars carrier cannot move about freely without infecting others and causing them miseries and possible death. This is akin to murder! Rather he should be quarantined and monitored closely!

    I'm not saying that at the WC that Sars will make its appearance, but if there is a possibility that this can happen, then why take the risk? It has been reported that despite all the efforts and precautions by some well-intentioned countries, Sars still managed to seep through. If lives were claimed at the WC, then who is to take the blame? That is why I still support IBF's decision. It doesn't matter to me how the IBF was advised on its decision. We have experienced the deadly Sars in Singapore to remind us not to play with fire.

  3. #71
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Angry Sars Attack Again???

    Alas, it was reported in today's papers that Singapore's "ringfence strategy" could have been breached as there have been no new Sars cases for 15 days". with the appearance of a big new cluster of possible 30 Sars cases at the Institute of Mental Health in Hougang who are down with fever. 24 elderly patients, above 60 years, and 3 of the 6 affected nurses have been transferred to the Sars 'specialist' treatment centre at Tan Tock Seng Hospital. The remaining three nurses are quarantined at home. 1,600 staff members have to move temporarily into isolation accommodation in Woodlands and Jurong to allow for close monitoring of everyone.

    The priority now is to stop the infection spreading to others. The Minister in charge has expressed grave concern and I think it is inevitable that some of these new cases may eventually be confirmed as Sars victims.

    Now the reasons for these "new" cases are still being investigated into. But suffice it to say that despite all the efforts and precautions taken by the Singapore government the Sars situation here is still in a limbo and nothing is quite conclusive. The worse is that this new cases have to come about when we are on the verge of making a breakthrough as regards the incubation period and we thought we could celebrate the status of being Sars-free. Now we are almost back to square one in the sense that people's attitudes and psyche will again be adversely affected and the economic situation both at home and abroad will continue to languish.

    We just can't throw caution to the wind. Hurray to the IBF for postponing the WC!

  4. #72
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    It is one such method of containment.

    Rather than pass judgement on few details, I would await on further details on contact tracing rather than celebrate the postponement of the WC which does not take place in a hospital.

    I really don't want to labour a point but apart from the the Asian delegation travelling to the tournament (I mean players/coaches etc), how many hospital workers/general public are going to travel to England to see the WC?...very few.
    The badminton WC is not a big event in audience (sorry to say). We might think it's big (being badminton enthusiasts) but the reality is that the vast majority of Asian faces you will see attending are either local residents or students.

    Lucky, our erstwhile admin chose to attend the Sudirman cup than the WC on the advice of BFer's!! I think he must have been one of only two persons to travel the furthest, just to see the tournament.

  5. #73
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Cheung
    [students.

    Lucky, our erstwhile admin chose to attend the Sudirman cup than the WC on the advice of BFer's!! I think he must have been one of only two persons to travel the furthest, just to see the tournament. [/B]
    Yes, Kwun must be one of the happiest men around to be able to enjoy the hotly contested Sudirman Cup! He beat Sars to it!

    Our Singapore Open, scheduled in mid-June, is in danger of being cancelled or postponed in view of the unrelenting Sars situation. I will miss the opportunity of witnessing some of the best players in action. It's been a year's wait and now it can come to naught!

  6. #74
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    yes, i too realized that i was pretty lucky to have picked SC over WC for my trip.

    heck, you never know, by March, SARS is supposed to have been pretty wide spread in parts of China, i have asked a few Chinese players for signatures, i may have come in contact with it already!

  7. #75
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    Default Hard habit to break

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  8. #76
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    Default More commonly seen on espnstar sports

    Ever watch European soccer on TV? Some very expert exponents of propulsion of oral fluids are evident. And these are professionals!!!

  9. #77
    Regular Member Bbn's Avatar
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    Default Cigarette smoking

    I wonder if there is a correlation between cigarette puffing and

    SARS.Definitely smoking weakens the lungs and make people more subsceptible to

    SARS and TB.Smoking definitely is related to heart disease.

    China has the highest no. of smokers in the world per capita.

    Anyway I am not running anybody down, in Japan for eg.old people still

    slurp their food to show appreciation, and sit on chairs with thier legs up

    and pee everywhere, much to the disgust of younger people.In Msia it is

    impossible to educate people not to smoke in air con places and not to spit

    anywhere they like or allow thier children to pee in places other than the toilet.

    Chow Sing Chi demonstrates the "hawking sound",
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  10. #78
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    It was a shame that the World Champsionships were cancelled.

    However since it is a world ranking event, the points gained help towards the rankings in the Olympics in 2004, so this event must be held.

    Apparently the event will go ahead sometime in August, whether or not it is in Birmingham UK, is another question.

    Not only that but the World championships would have gone ahead if not for just one vote. Sars was not a major issue, as the World Health Organisation gave the go ahead for the games, rather it was the IBF themselves who decide not to give clear. Shame really, politics again.

  11. #79
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    Originally posted by Kc_uk

    Not only that but the World championships would have gone ahead if not for just one vote. Sars was not a major issue, as the World Health Organisation gave the go ahead for the games, rather it was the IBF themselves who decide not to give clear. Shame really, politics again.
    Errr... don't know how to express my feeling toward ur comments.

    I agree, there should be some political issues involved (well, nothing these days can be setteled without touching politics anyway). However, "prevention" is really import in the "SARS" matter.

    WHO can only make decison to "bann" certain region, AFTER SARS being a serious problem. Let's say Taiwan, 2 weeks ago, TW has 0 SARS, now, it becomes one of the most serious region in SARS spreading. It's like computer virus, ppl won't make the "virus scan" program, until certain type of virus already did sig. damage in computer network, etc.

    My point is, a safe place today, could be the next "nightmare" region. With the potential of huge waves coming from Asia to attend WC, it will surely put a lot of ppl's lives in danger.

    It's very hard to draw the line. Many ppl can easily argue my points, like "hey, chance is still small, what about if nothing happened???" Of course, but don't forget, a lot of things could not be decide just by the %%%. Chance is small, but the RESULT could be DEADLY. These days, ppl have much more chance to get regular flu than SARS. However, I don't think ppl really scare to death about regular flu. Why? Because most of the cases, just take some medicine, u will be fine. However, if anyone hit the "jackpot" in SARS, I will be very sorry...

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    Sorry i may have mislead you in what i said. What i meant was Sars was not the overall reason why the games were cancelled, some other reasons contributed them being polical ones.

    I'm sure that the WHO would have taken full precautions in this matter to help prevent the spread of the virus.

    I read recently that the UK has only 3 probable cases but only one reported case of Sars. The person who wasn't named has recovered due to the fact that it was discovered early.

    But as some others mentioned on this thread, if the WC were cancelled due to Sars, then why not cancel all other forms of sports too?

  13. #81
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    Originally posted by Cheung
    good point. We don't know if a person is infectious or not before they have a raised body temperature. You can't identify them. Just like the situation with HIV infection. Many people with HIV walk around doing normal things. I can't see a difference.
    HIV has been with us for many years. How it's transmitted is well understood.
    although to this day we still have no cure, we know how to cope. Unless you
    need blood transfusion (which should already have been screened by now), share
    needles, have new *** partner(s), your risk is minimal. Again, can we proclaim we
    know how SARS is spread?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    True. No test is 100% effective. Even patients who turn up to Emergency room get sent home and reattend later (for other illnesses too). This is a fact of life. At least temperature measurement and questionnaires are simple measures, easily performed, cheap, require only a small amount of training. Look at the cost:benefit ratio.
    [/B]
    It's one thing that a test is not 100% effective. It's another if the test is completely
    ineffective. In between is a wide range. Sure, the methods (questionaires, and
    temperature checks) are cheap alright. But IMHO they also have questionable
    effectiveness. While I've no objection to this measure, I do question the wisdom
    of relying on them though.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    I doubt any disease in the initial stages has such a test. For example, other viruses, at the inital stages of infection, Hep B, HIV, don't show up positive tests. This expectation is too high for the technology we have at the moment.
    [/B]
    Well put. You already said it's in the initial stage. So, why not have a bit more
    patience? It's not life imprisonment, is it?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    You have to be pragmatic. Would you cut down all airplane flights, sports events because of the risk of terrorism? Cancel the Olympics please, somebody....
    [/B]
    I believed that's exactly what happened here in U.S. immediately after 9/11.
    Airports were literally shut down, albeit shortly. That's, until counter-measures
    were put in place. Furthermore, traffics were cut down naturally since people
    automatically cancel their non-essential travel plans.

    As for Olympics, well, everything has a price/priority. No kidding. Someone
    might have made a decision for you how much your life is worth. It depends
    on the SARS situation as we get closer to Olympics time. Everything has its
    first time, I'm NOT rejecting the possibility of someone canceling Olympics altogether,
    do you? If this does happen, I believe this would be its first time in history?


    Originally posted by Cheung
    Do you think the health care system is as advanced as in US? Consider also the baseline education level of the population. Some patients may not even understand the questions!!
    [/B]
    Hmm... You lost me here. Are you talking about the questions on those
    screening questionaires?


    Originally posted by Cheung
    Anybody can be a terrorist threat.
    [/B]
    This is just as saying everyone would die some day. Apparently, the insurance
    company has a slightly different idea using Actuarial Science.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Raymond, sorry if I sound like I disagree with a lot of things.
    [/B]
    You don't need to apologize. As long as we don't resort to launching personal
    attacks, and just stick with "things", okay?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    For the WC, perhaps players arriving from affected countries are at risk. Therefore, the rationale of implementation of screening for ALL of the delegation of all countries (as I suggested earlier) during the tournament. (Possibly could pick up virus in transit). NOT quarantine. Can a person transmit the virus over a distance of 3 metres? No evidence of that either.
    [/B]
    But the idea of this screening is flawed... It admits the possibility of infection
    among some individuals. By the time he is screened out (based on development
    of symptoms), countless other may have be infected by him alone.

    To play Devil's Advocate, even if we've definitive diagnostic test, as long as it's
    not instantaneous, we'd have logistic nightmare. A person that gets a negative
    test result may be infected after the test was conducted but before the test was
    published. Hence he'd be free, by mistake.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Forcefully quarantining people without evidence does more harm than good. Would you forcefully quarantine people from countries with a high rate of HIV and force them to undergo a mandatory blood test after the seroconversion period?
    [/B]
    Why do you keep coming back to compare with HIV? Can you please establish
    the argument that this is an "apple to apple" comparison?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Now, if you said this two months ago, my stance would have been different. I might have said for the WC not to go ahead, but now we have more information.
    [/B]
    What information?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    If I am not mistaken, smallpox is the only virus that has ever been succesfully eradicated by man....coronavirus is not going to be the next one. [/B]
    But SARS doesn't have to be eradicated. Furthermore, is it too early to surrender?
    Common cold is pretty much harmless. That may explain practically no resources
    are put into research a cure for it. Given high enough a profile and financial rewards,
    you could see talent emerges. Is there any intrinsic reason why we can't deal
    with coronavirus? Maybe because of SARS, we end up having vaccine for Common
    Cold also

    Of course, act/pretend as if nothing has happened is one way to cope. But it seems
    too early to fall hopeless.

  14. #82
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    Default Re: Re: Kia-su, Kia-si, Kia-sars!!!

    Originally posted by Cheung

    BTW, WHO is an advisory alert. It doesn't say you must not go to affected countries unless there was a very good reason. You are only advised not to go. There's no reverse policy. Companies who enforce a 10 day quarantine of their employees do so out of their own company policy. Not because the WHO advises so.....
    Ever wonder why companies choose to do so, despite the fact that is gonna
    cost them opportunities, hard $$, delivery schedule? Why can't they implement
    daily health check, and send people out as usual, or invite the Chinese/Asian
    customers over instead?

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    Originally posted by Cheung
    Since we are only referring to the WC here, we should apply our checking procedures in context of the world championships.

    Well, I bet there are still flights coming in and out of China to Europe. Presumably, if LB, Raymond, Bbn etc are correct, then we should see more severe transmission in another countries. But it's not happening! Put in context of the WC, then the WC doesn't seem to be the high risk that people think it is at.
    We're talking about chances here. As traveling frequency increases, the chance
    SARS is spread would simply increase. If it hasn't happened yet, perhaps it's just
    a question of time. Ever thought about the logic of smokers. Some of these people
    may argue "I've been smoking for some 30 years... or someone has been smoking
    for his whole life, and yet he lived to 80 something... So smoking can't be dangerous"
    What would you be thinking when someone gives you such an argument?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Please do not get confused with the issue of country screening its ports and screening at the world championships. Sure LB is correct...so what are you going to do, LB? Best thing to do is to lock yourself up inside and never go outside!
    [/B]
    You and Colin have repeatedly made such comments. I believe perhaps your
    bravery has been misplaced. To be sensible and not attend major gatherings that
    drastically increase your chance of infection at this early stage when not much
    help can offer you, I think it's just wise and be responsible (to yourself, your loved
    ones, and to other people). I'd call it a period of observation/caution. It doesn't
    mean we can't go anywhere at all. You perhaps had made a sweeping
    generalization here - "To not show up in SOME places is equivalent to not show up
    in ALL places".

    Does this sound right?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    I suspect a few people on this discussion are engineering disciplines. My impression is that, engineers like hard facts. Not probability. Unfortunately, no test in medicine is so hard fact. There are always errors when dealing with biological systems. That's why we have to use statistics. Even 'gold standard' tests have errors.
    [/B]
    You got the first part right. Yes, I'm an engineer (EE) by training and by profession.
    But your 2nd part is off base. Engineers like hard facts. But they also like
    probability. The latter is a technique commonly used in quality control, quantitative
    analysis, and design works. The wireless network your cell phone calls go through,
    the data network you hooked up to, the telephone switch you connected to, all
    have a lot to do with Statistics that we engineers need to use/touch/consider.

    So, Cheung, perhaps I use/think/know more Statistics than you realize

    Originally posted by Cheung
    People on this board demand complete answers that fit nicely in to a package. Sorry to tell you that many times in medicine, you don't get that nice package. Medicine and biological systems are not nice things you can manufacture, build, test to tight tolerances. This is reality - all I suggest for the WC are measures to reduce risk(and have psychological benefit). [/B]
    After hearing your verdicts, as well as that of Colin, I'm becoming somewhat
    concern about the Health Care system in H.K., as well as my own well being here,
    now that I can't escape dealing with some medical doctors in my life ;-)
    Last edited by raymond; 05-16-2003 at 03:14 AM.

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    Originally posted by Cheung
    That just tells me you haven't got enough information. You want more information on what? effectiveness? the proof exists already!! Why would WHO lift their travel advisory alert on some areas?
    I suspect WHO is under a lot of political pressure not to be the "bad" guy.
    Just look at the reaction from Canada, when WHO gave travel advisory alert
    on Toronto.

    The travel advisory alert is perhaps more like stock analysts recommendation.
    Ever wonder how you can make any $$ with their recommendations? They tell
    you to "strong" buy when the stock has already peaked, and "hold" when the
    stock is heading to bottom.

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    Default Some references

    What the "Experts" say:
    Psycologists say people tend to hear what they want to hear. The following
    are what I hear. What about you?

    "In a case where you don't understand the true risks, you must take
    maximum measures," David Heymann, head of WHO's communicable
    diseases unit said.
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...d_030515144911

    "We can only sleep well when the whole world is rid of this virus or more
    likely a vaccine is available. That will take years," said Khaw Boon Wan, a
    [Singapore] cabinet minister who is the head of a task force to tackle SARS.
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._hospital_dc_1

    ''Most of the other travel health risks we deal with are well known,'' notes
    Bradley Connor, incoming president of the travel medical society. ''Yes,
    there are changes and resistance to medications, but these are things
    we're able to keep up with and have a pretty good handle on. Emerging
    infectious diseases, by definition, catch us by surprise. ''It's better to err
    on the side of caution. If we're overreacting and someone cancels a trip
    because of it, that's bad. But it's worse if we didn't act and put someone in harm's
    way of contracting a serious and potentially lethal disease.''
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...atoday/5144657

    "...a majority of the IBF Executive Board felt on balance that a postponement
    was the responsible decision. "
    http://www.worldbadminton.net/getstory.asp?id=835

    Points to Ponder
    Think about the following:

    Number one on the list
    So far, no one tell me if IBF can enforce the health check at all points of departure
    or even point of entry.

    Done by a doctor, can you believe that
    BEIJING - A doctor with the SARS (news - web sites) virus has been arrested
    for allegedly violating a quarantine and starting an outbreak that infected
    more than 100 people in a northern Chinese city, police said Thursday, in
    the first known arrest for spreading the flu-like disease.
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...tor_arrested_2

    WASHINGTON - Keeping SARS (news - web sites) from spreading in the
    United States is straining the already besieged public health system, and
    it's partly a matter of luck that this newest killer so far has been contained here.
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ublic_health_6

    Some border Shutting is already happening.
    MOSCOW (AFP) - Russia diagnosed its first case of SARS (news - web sites)
    and took emergency steps to prevent the killer epidemic spilling over from
    China, with a threatened ban on flights and restrictions across the vast land
    border.
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...a_030508165600

    What Children Do
    Children always like to do this trick - if there's something they want,
    they'd ask their mom(dad) first. If they don't get what they want, they'd ask
    their dad(mom).
    If WC is the only one that is NOT canceled while ALL other sports are
    canceled, would people ask why WC is NOT canceled? Most likely, they would
    still maintain all these other sport organizations had made a terrible mistake.

    Role of WHO
    It seems WHO may be under a lot of political pressure to give travel advisory
    alert on any city/countries - look at recent objection from Canada. What is
    WHO actually afraid of? Information may not be available to all countires -
    No data or info. to Taiwan as it's not part of U.N.
    "If we could have support from the WHO, we would not lose so many lives
    and we wouldn't need to quarantine so many people."
    Taiwan was ousted from the United Nations (news - web sites) in 1971 and was
    replaced by China.

    Diagnostic Test:
    Developed by Artus in collaboration with the Bernhard-Nocht-Institute for
    Tropical Medicine (BNI) in Hamburg, Germany, the test was introduced by Artus
    in April to countries in Asia and Europe and has been provided to laboratories
    under the direction of the World Health Organization (WHO) and other major
    clinical sites conducting studies on the SARS virus. Initial results of different
    sample types (sputum, swabs, stool and tissue) from these WHO laboratories are
    promising.
    The test is based on a highly sensitive technology known as polymerase chain
    reaction (PCR), which directly detects the virus in patient samples, and
    produces results in two hours.
    see http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030515/cgth034_1.html

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