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View Poll Results: Did IBF make the correct decision in postponing the World Championships?

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  • yes. postponing WC was a good decision

    32 50.79%
  • no. WC should have been held as scheduled.

    31 49.21%
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  1. #86
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    So, I take it you think we should stop sporting events for the years it will take to find a cure for Coronavirus infection.

    Tell me a country in which the health system it doesn't claim itself bursting at the seams

    If really travel is so bad, why aren't all passenger flights and international flights stopped now. Includes those between nonSARS countries as somebody (not me) has pointed out that there is even a risk of people transmitting infection in transit.

    If WHO is advising maximal measures, why isn't the majority of the population wearing a N95/N100 mask going out. In particular, are you going out at all? Have you avoided meeting people and crowded places because of atypical pneumonia (under WHO advice)?

    It's not the job of the IBF to enforce screening at borders. That's a job for immigration. I recommended daily checks for all the delegation for the WC should it have proceeded. Do you think that is an irresponsible action?

    Countries affected by SARS are reacting hard. Infectious diseases come and go. It wouldn't be surprising if Coronavirus made another comeback within the year. How long are you going to wait for?

    Your Chinese doctor should have known better. Bad apples will tend to make headlines. It was a doctor form China who was the index case for HK. Professional badminton players don't work in hospitals..as far as I know.

    What Moscow did is what they did for their country. Other countries haven't done it.

    Not really sure on your point about children.....

    You have to ask the WHO about their political pressures. I am in no way able to give a comment on that.


    The PCR test is also known to show up negative when a person has the virus. (false negative). Initial results are not definitive tests. Here's what the WHO site says:
    Principally, existing PCR tests are very specific but lack sensitivity. This means that negative tests cannot rule out the presence of the SARS virus in patients. Furthermore, contamination of samples in laboratories in the absence of laboratory quality control can lead to false positive results.
    The point on increased frequency with travel is correct. That is the point of screening. Now if you not satisfied with the measures in place already by the immigration departments, why have you not expressed disatisfaction at those systems as travel is still occurring.

    After hearing your verdicts, as well as that of Colin, I'm becoming somewhat
    concern about the Health Care system in H.K., as well as my own well being here,
    now that I can't escape dealing with some medical doctors in my life ;-)
    There's an implicit meaning in your statement and can be viewed as a personal attackl I strongly invite you to retract that statement. You have your choice in which doctors you want to see and don't want to see. One can consider that different doctors have differing opinions, even in the US.

    Well put. You already said it's in the initial stage. So, why not have a bit more patience? It's not life imprisonment, is it?
    you misinterpreted the statement. Not the inital stages of disease pattern and spread. The inital stages of infection of an individual.

    Private companies can do those other checks as well.

    Mentioning the risk of terrorism, sorry for not being clear, that was referring to the baseline risk of terrorism. Even when on 'alert' for possible activities, are flights being stopped? I don't want to go further with this part because then we start deviating too far away.

    I do believe every person will die someday in their lifetime! But your genetic material can survive..........

    But the idea of this screening is flawed... It admits the possibility of infection
    among some individuals. By the time he is screened out (based on development
    of symptoms), countless other may have be infected by him alone.
    Well, no screening test is perfect. I take your point. But if it really is so ineffectual why bother setting this up as some of our Asian countries have done. And the cross country transmission is very low (now the disease entity has been discovered and we know more about it)

    I get the impression from BFer's that coronavirus has to be eradicated totally. Low as possible risk, right? Apologies if I misinterpreted that. There was a centre in UK that had a lot of resources put in to look for a cure for the common cold. Don't know what happened to the project but there doesn't seem to be a cure now. Granted that certain drugs are available now that weren't available then....

    Why do you keep coming back to compare with HIV? Can you please establish the argument that this is an "apple to apple" comparison?
    HIV is a RNA virus...so is coronavirus, as is Hep A, Hep C, Hep G. Apologies, Hep B is a DNA virus.

    The extra information I was referring to is the information we have gained over the last couple of months.

    Finally, I like to add I never stated or acted like everything was hunkydory with SARS and that there was/is no danger. I have always maintained the WC could have gone ahead with proper screening and checks on delegates. WHO and British health authorities did not say the WC had to be cancelled. That was a decision made by the IBF. Going by the opinion of WHO and British health authorities, my view seems to be consistent with theirs...

    (sorry about the disjointed answers - I just couldn't face cutting out and pasting everything so just tried to do it with the points which are less clear)


    FYI, something on mass gatherings, but a bit late.
    http://www.who.int/csr/sars/guidelines/gatherings/en/

    Last edited by Cheung; 05-16-2003 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #87
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    Originally posted by raymond
    I suspect WHO is under a lot of political pressure not to be the "bad" guy.
    Just look at the reaction from Canada, when WHO gave travel advisory alert
    on Toronto.

    The travel advisory alert is perhaps more like stock analysts recommendation.
    Ever wonder how you can make any $$ with their recommendations? They tell
    you to "strong" buy when the stock has already peaked, and "hold" when the
    stock is heading to bottom.
    Don't get me steam up about anal-ysts recommendation.

  3. #88
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    just one last point. there are always going to be differing views and stances on this. This is only natural considering that human beings have different tolerances according to factors like education, upbringing, personal values etc.

    I think we've probably gone through the main issues involved. The fact is the IBF took a very conservative stance. A cavalier approach would be one with no precautions. There is also a middle ground. There are always pros and cons of each side. Many times, we have to choose practicality. Sometimes, practicalities are sacrificed. Other times, main objectives in projects are reached with many different solutions.

    Here we see an example, different solutions to the same problem. No-one is right or wrong. Both can be correct...

    Thanks. This will probably be my last statement on this thread

  4. #89
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    I, too, would like to post a final word on this thread. Cheung and I have both personally treated SARS patients in HK and we are both well aware of the risks and serious consequences of a SARS infection.

    As a matter of fact, I am sad to have recently lost a medical colleague at my previous hospital to SARS, and now have just heard that another ICU colleague has been diagnosed with SARS, too.....

    So believe me when I say I am fully aware of the risks involved. All I am saying is that the general public should be aware that the risk of getting SARS is not high unless you are a health care worker or have cared for someone with SARS. Fortunately the virus needs close contact for transmission, otherwise the whole of HK (or for that matter all of China) would have come down with it by now.

    All I am pleading for is for common sense and that we do not allow irrational fear to prevail. Fear and paranoid will lead discrimination against innocent people and does not help in the battle against SARS. And this will be a long war, as SARS will be with us for a long long time, just like HIV. We all have to live with the fact that SARS is not going away soon and will have to adapt our lifestyles to cope accordingly. So does this mean that the WC must be indefinitely postponed until the SARS virus is completely eliminated and there is therefore zero risk of transmission? Of course not, the rational response is that we have to deal with it by instituting adequate screening procedures as recommended by the health authorities and allowing the event to proceed. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too, by allowing air travel and business contacts between SARS affected regions and the UK, for example, and then not allowing the WC to proceed in Birmingham. This decision doesn’t make sense to me at all.

    Anyway, I am glad that we all have had an opportunity to air our views in this forum. Funny thing is I came here to check out the views of fellow badminton fanatics on purely badminton issues, like getting tips on my lousy backhand, and never expected to post anything on SARS at all....

    In the end, we can agree to disagree, but I hope no one takes anything I have posted personally.

  5. #90
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    Originally posted by Cheung
    So, I take it you think we should stop sporting events for the years it will take to find a cure for Coronavirus infection.
    No, that's not what I propose. The outbreak just happened "yesterday". I'm
    just saying we should take a breather before we rush into anything longer term.
    But I don't think we should pretend nothing has happened either.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    If really travel is so bad, why aren't all passenger flights and international flights stopped now. Includes those between nonSARS countries as somebody (not me) has pointed out that there is even a risk of people transmitting infection in transit.
    [/B]
    I think we're trying to control the risk, which may or may not materialize. The
    topic of this thread is about badminton and IBF's decision. In all due respects,
    as much as I like/enjoy the sports, it doesn't pass the risk/reward analysis; of
    course, it's a very personal subjective one. No one (I believe) in this forum could
    have any influences, directly or otherwise, on travel policy of any government.

    Shutting down borders/flights is already happening in some countries (see Russia).
    Others used more liberated approach. In order to travel to another country,
    I suppose one usually needs a visa. Perhaps the visa approval process has
    changed, such that less people can get a tourist visa these days. Do we have
    any visibility in this arena in visa control?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    If WHO is advising maximal measures, why isn't the majority of the population wearing a N95/N100 mask going out.
    [/B]
    If I were in H.K., Taiwan, China etc, I probably would. And I think a lot of people
    (as shown on TV) in those localities are already wearing ones.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    In particular, are you going out at all? Have you avoided meeting people and crowded places because of atypical pneumonia (under WHO advice)?
    [/B]
    Yes, I'm still going out. And yes, I along with my family, have already avoided
    going to certain places, especially crowded places.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    It's not the job of the IBF to enforce screening at borders. That's a job for immigration.
    [/B]
    That's precisely my point. IBF can't make decision based on things they can't
    control. And don't forget that, as time goes by, this SARS situation may get
    better or worse, but IBF had to make a decision something like 2-3 weeks ago,
    when the whole SARS thing is at this "peak". And I believe it's a postponement
    as opposed to cancellation - IBF is taking a "Wait and See" attitude.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    I recommended daily checks for all the delegation for the WC should it have proceeded. Do you think that is an irresponsible action?
    [/B]
    Personally, I'd not take those checks too seriously, that is until I learn more
    about their adequacy.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Countries affected by SARS are reacting hard. Infectious diseases come and go. It wouldn't be surprising if Coronavirus made another comeback within the year. How long are you going to wait for?
    [/B]
    Personally, waiting for another year or two is just fine with me. Researchers
    are working on this day and night already. We should give them some time to
    bear fruits.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Your Chinese doctor should have known better. Bad apples will tend to make headlines. It was a doctor form China who was the index case for HK. Professional badminton players don't work in hospitals..as far as I know.
    [/B]
    Your focus is primarily on the hospitals, which is understandable, as they're related
    to your profession. But what happens to those patients before they're checked
    into the hospitals? Or checked out of the hosiptals for that matter (given the
    virus could be in their bodies for up to a month)?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    What Moscow did is what they did for their country. Other countries haven't done it.
    [/B]
    Not yet.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Not really sure on your point about children.....
    [/B]
    I was trying to make a point that people (probably myself included) tend to
    look for "evidence" that support their own views, and ignore everything else.
    Just like the kids - all they need is one of the parents supporting their wants.
    This comment is directed at the comment about different decisions made by
    different sporting organizations, and people are taking their own picks to support
    their arguments.

    Majority doesn't always translate to "Right" decision. We need to assess
    situations on their own merits. Just because everybody is wrong in something
    doesn't make that something right - although I won't go so far to say all these
    sport organizations had made terrible mistakes, as we had already argued this
    point before.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    The PCR test is also known to show up negative when a person has the virus. (false negative). Initial results are not definitive tests. Here's what the WHO site says:
    [/B]
    I'd accept imperfect solutions . I'm more concerns about the unnecessary
    loss of lives as well as economic fallouts. However, between 0-100%, other than
    100% everything else is imperfect. When evaluating any measures, is it closer
    to 0% or to 100%?

    Originally posted by Cheung
    The point on increased frequency with travel is correct. That is the point of screening. Now if you not satisfied with the measures in place already by the immigration departments, why have you not expressed disatisfaction at those systems as travel is still occurring.
    [/B]
    We've already drifted off-topic . Beside, if my bringing up all
    the "imperfections" in the travel inspection policy is not enough a statement about
    my dissatisfaction at those systems, I don't know what else I can say...

    Originally posted by Cheung
    There's an implicit meaning in your statement and can be viewed as a personal attackl I strongly invite you to retract that statement.
    [/B]
    Yes, I'd pick up your invitation and retract that statement. I do hope that you
    and Colin don't bring up again the sweeping statement that says "people taking a
    cautious stance should hide in toilets in fear, etc"...

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Mentioning the risk of terrorism, sorry for not being clear, that was referring to the baseline risk of terrorism. Even when on 'alert' for possible activities, are flights being stopped? I don't want to go further with this part because then we start deviating too far away.
    [/B]
    The difference, again, is in the efficacy of the counter-measures. I believe today
    we have a better system to fight terrorists than to fight SARS (at least as far
    as airport safety is concerned).

    Along this line, I'd like to make one parting comment - just because something bad
    hasn't happened this far doesn't mean it won't happen in the near future, if we
    know/assert that there's a flaw somewhere in the system. Prior to 911, we all
    know the airport security is flawed, yet nothing was done, until it's too late. Now
    that traveling continues with what I view as defective screening process, I'd cross
    my fingers and see how things work out....

    Originally posted by Cheung
    I do believe every person will die someday in their lifetime! But your genetic material can survive..........
    [/B]
    Interesting. I never thought much about my genetic material...

    Originally posted by Cheung
    Well, no screening test is perfect. I take your point. But if it really is so ineffectual why bother setting this up as some of our Asian countries have done. And the cross country transmission is very low (now the disease entity has been discovered and we know more about it)
    [/B]
    Desperate situations often times drive people to adopt desperate measures,
    even though those measures may not be effective at all. But I do hope I'm
    wrong here. We'd have a better idea over time.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    I get the impression from BFer's that coronavirus has to be eradicated totally. Low as possible risk, right?
    [/B]
    Life goes on... Regardless of the outcome of this fight against SARS, all decisions
    in the future should be risk/reward driven, I believe.

    Originally posted by Cheung
    WHO and British health authorities did not say the WC had to be cancelled. That was a decision made by the IBF. Going by the opinion of WHO and British health authorities, my view seems to be consistent with theirs...
    [/B]
    One can view IBF's decision in a more positive light - it's called initiative,
    something welcome in corporate environment . On another note, what if
    WHO and British Heath authorities did advise stopping the events? The focal
    point of all these arguments would probably shift one level, but we probably
    would still go throught similar points. This goes back to my "Childern" analogy.
    Silence of WHO and British Health authorities are treated as a blessing.

    Beside, I see at IBF website that there're countries withdrawing from WC.
    I suppose they won't be China, or Indonesia or any of the top players (maybe
    except Danmark). We don't really know how many withdrawals. So here remains
    the question of participation too.

    Anyhow, I think you're right. We spent enough time talking about this issue that
    we as BF'er can't do nothing to change. I do appreciate that everyone participated
    remained civilized .

    Now back to other threads....
    Last edited by raymond; 05-17-2003 at 02:01 PM.

  6. #91
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    this thread has become an unproductive rathole. i am closing it.

    the original intent was to see how many people are for and against cancelling of the WC, and from the poll result, we have a pretty clear split.

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