BWF to implement a replay system to check disputes over line calls

[Mark A]

you are not on about THAT goal in 66, are you Mark?

Nah; that "goal" at Chelsea/Spurs on Sunday.

[AlanY]

Nah; that "goal" at Chelsea/Spurs on Sunday.

yes, we been robbed

[Tactim]

just wondering, for tennis, do they have hawk eye in the early rounds? like round of 32?

It's not so much dependent on the stage of the tournament as what court the match is played on. Unlike badminton where all matches in played in one big general hall, Tennis matches are played in separate locations, some are called the "show courts" where it's essentially an entire stadium (of various sizes) around one single tennis court. These are reserved for the higher ranked players or higher profile players to play their matches. It is these courts that are generally equipped with Hawk Eye, while the less important courts where lower ranked players play against each other usually don't have Hawk Eye.

So even in Tennis, not every player has the luxury of Hawk Eye and use the exact same line calling system as Badminton where line calls cannot be overruled unless there was a clear error that can be overturned by the chair umpire. This privilege is reserved for players ranked in the top 15 or so usually as they have a high chance of always having their match played at a show court.

[Licin]

It's not so much dependent on the stage of the tournament as what court the match is played on. Unlike badminton where all matches in played in one big general hall, Tennis matches are played in separate locations, some are called the "show courts" where it's essentially an entire stadium (of various sizes) around one single tennis court. These are reserved for the higher ranked players or higher profile players to play their matches. It is these courts that are generally equipped with Hawk Eye, while the less important courts where lower ranked players play against each other usually don't have Hawk Eye.

So even in Tennis, not every player has the luxury of Hawk Eye and use the exact same line calling system as Badminton where line calls cannot be overruled unless there was a clear error that can be overturned by the chair umpire. This privilege is reserved for players ranked in the top 15 or so usually as they have a high chance of always having their match played at a show court.

Thanks for the info...Even in tennis where there are a lot of sponsors and higher money prize, not every player did enjoy Hawk Eye system. I suggest Badminton implement or rent Hawk Eye system during London OG Final.

[pcll99]

It's not so much dependent on the stage of the tournament as what court the match is played on. Unlike badminton where all matches in played in one big general hall, Tennis matches are played in separate locations, some are called the "show courts" where it's essentially an entire stadium (of various sizes) around one single tennis court. These are reserved for the higher ranked players or higher profile players to play their matches. It is these courts that are generally equipped with Hawk Eye, while the less important courts where lower ranked players play against each other usually don't have Hawk Eye.

So even in Tennis, not every player has the luxury of Hawk Eye and use the exact same line calling system as Badminton where line calls cannot be overruled unless there was a clear error that can be overturned by the chair umpire. This privilege is reserved for players ranked in the top 15 or so usually as they have a high chance of always having their match played at a show court.

thanks. what about lower tier tournament like ATP 250? do they they have hawk eye?

[Tactim]

thanks. what about lower tier tournament like ATP 250? do they they have hawk eye?

That's a good question. From my own experience of watching pro tennis, The ATP 250 tournaments usually have one or two show courts at most, never more than that as they don't have the funds to support it. so only those courts have the hawk eye. ATP 500 and 1000 tournaments have more, but of course those tournaments have more players involved so there are naturally more show courts with hawk eye equipped. And of course once you get to the grand slam level, they are the richest venues (4 per year) so they have several show courts to support the top 15 players who enter the tournament with hawk eye.

There are also clay courts in tennis, and here hawk eye is actually not used because the tennis ball leaves a mark in the clay so there is system of line call overruling if the call is close. Some of these clay court events actually even have hawk eye equipped in the show courts though these are usually ONLY used for spectator views and gathering statistics about the player's hitting habits and such.

That actually reminds me, hawk eye cameras I believe do MUCH more than just line calling. The whole system is capable of tracking the tennis ball's speed, rpm (rotations per minute, this is very recent), the player's percentage of shot placement in relation to the court, how high each ball bounces. It's actually amazing how advanced the technology behind hawk eye is and how sophisticated the technology gets and the statistics they are able to gather about EACH player. For example, whenever they have big rivalry matches like federer vs nadal, djokovic vs nadal, they are able to pull statistics from a match the two played a year ago about where the player's served, where their ground strokes were going in the court, etc. and compare it to how the match is being played now. In badminton we only know how fast the shuttle is going, but imagine if tv spectators were able to see way more statistics than just the speed of the match. You could break down where Lin Dan likes to smash more, either cross court, body smash, and straight smash, essentially the placement of every single shot he plays.

So all in all, the system in my opinion pays for itself in how it catches the viewers with all the extra info it brings. I could be wrong and that it is a whole separate system they use for these statistics, but I believe it's all the same thing just with different programs running from it.

[pcll99]

That's a good question. From my own experience of watching pro tennis, The ATP 250 tournaments usually have one or two show courts at most, never more than that as they don't have the funds to support it. so only those courts have the hawk eye. ATP 500 and 1000 tournaments have more, but of course those tournaments have more players involved so there are naturally more show courts with hawk eye equipped. And of course once you get to the grand slam level, they are the richest venues (4 per year) so they have several show courts to support the top 15 players who enter the tournament with hawk eye.

There are also clay courts in tennis, and here hawk eye is actually not used because the tennis ball leaves a mark in the clay so there is system of line call overruling if the call is close. Some of these clay court events actually even have hawk eye equipped in the show courts though these are usually ONLY used for spectator views and gathering statistics about the player's hitting habits and such.

That actually reminds me, hawk eye cameras I believe do MUCH more than just line calling. The whole system is capable of tracking the tennis ball's speed, rpm (rotations per minute, this is very recent), the player's percentage of shot placement in relation to the court, how high each ball bounces. It's actually amazing how advanced the technology behind hawk eye is and how sophisticated the technology gets and the statistics they are able to gather about EACH player. For example, whenever they have big rivalry matches like federer vs nadal, djokovic vs nadal, they are able to pull statistics from a match the two played a year ago about where the player's served, where their ground strokes were going in the court, etc. and compare it to how the match is being played now. In badminton we only know how fast the shuttle is going, but imagine if tv spectators were able to see way more statistics than just the speed of the match. You could break down where Lin Dan likes to smash more, either cross court, body smash, and straight smash, essentially the placement of every single shot he plays.

So all in all, the system in my opinion pays for itself in how it catches the viewers with all the extra info it brings. I could be wrong and that it is a whole separate system they use for these statistics, but I believe it's all the same thing just with different programs running from it.

thank you. it's very useful and helpful suggestion. if BWF implement the above, badminton would be a whole lot more interesting.

spin of the birdie--i like that. 200 rpm?

[Licin]

It provides useful information for the coaches as well....

[Heong]

Good.

I'm surprised they didn't implement this system earlier...

You can see the replays on the screen but not allowed to use it over-rule or make the final call... I don't see the logic behind it?

Don't need to have hawk eye, but at least be able to allow replays to be used for the game and not just for the audience to enjoy so it can bring some justice to the players

[CantSmashThis]

I am actually at a tournament at the moment with deputy vice president Paisan. But I am too lazy to walk over and ask him about it haha. He is busy playing at the moment anyways.

[chris-ccc]

I am actually at a tournament at the moment with deputy vice president Paisan. But I am too lazy to walk over and ask him about it haha. He is busy playing at the moment anyways.

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Allow him to enjoy his game first; Then approach him later to ask him about this 'serious' question - How to minimise disputes over line calls?
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[Licin]

Yeah, Spectators at the stadium, audiences at home, as well as umpire & players themselves might be able to witness it clearly.. For example at All England 2010, Nathan Robertson/Jenny Wallwork vs Nova Widianto/Lilyana Natsir, it is very clear that the line judge is making an error, however despite the replay has shown it clearly, umpire still does not overrule the line judge that piss Nathan Robertson off..

Good.

I'm surprised they didn't implement this system earlier...

You can see the replays on the screen but not allowed to use it over-rule or make the final call... I don't see the logic behind it?

Don't need to have hawk eye, but at least be able to allow replays to be used for the game and not just for the audience to enjoy so it can bring some justice to the players

Absolutely, it will make the umpire looks ridiculous. Spectators & players watch from the giant screen replay that the shuttle is out & yet the empire still sticks towards his/her wrong decision.

Another thing that BWF could consider is that instead of using Hawk Eye, they might consider to try having 1 camera above the base lines as well as side lines, & be able to zoom it close enough to help determining whether it is in or out. Adjustment would be needed from Single games to Double or Mixed games.

[chris-ccc]

Absolutely, it will make the umpire looks ridiculous. Spectators & players watch from the giant screen replay that the shuttle is out & yet the empire still sticks towards his/her wrong decision.

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Umpires usually accept the decision from the line judges. This is because the line judges are situated in better positions to observe the call.

So... The umpire can say "Please don't blame me, but blame the line judge".

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[Licin]

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Umpires usually accept the decision from the line judges. This is because the line judges are situated in better positions to observe the call.

So... The umpire can say "Please don't blame me, but blame the line judge".

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Yes, I understand. However Umpire could watch the replay from the giant screen as well. BWF could make the rule to allow Umpire alter the decision made earlier, if the giant screen replay indicates otherwise.

[chibe_K]

Point # 1 ) If you were BWF, wouldn't you want to make it a goal to implement the replay system at OG 2012? Otherwise imagine what the world will be questioning - badminton, the fastest (or one of the fastest) racket sports on earth has no reply system!!! While other sports have adopating it to ensure fairness and to minimize controversy in making judgemental calls.

Point # 2 ) Apparently we have a sports body who is a follower, not a leader. I bet if this move did not happen to soccer, a replay system for badminton would never be put on the table for consideration.

Sad

[chris-ccc]

Point # 1 ) If you were BWF, wouldn't you want to make it a goal to implement the replay system at OG 2012? Otherwise imagine what the world will be questioning - badminton, the fastest (or one of the fastest) racket sports on earth has no reply system!!! While other sports have adopating it to ensure fairness and to minimize controversy in making judgemental calls.

Point # 2 ) Apparently we have a sports body who is a follower, not a leader. I bet if this move did not happen to soccer, a replay system for badminton would never be put on the table for consideration.

Sad

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It's now 10 months' ago that I started this thread;

Badminton explores use of technology for 'hot' line calls

Source: http://www.todayonline.com/Sports/Sp...hot-line-calls

====== * ====== part of article ====== * ======

In an effort to minimise disputes over line calls, the Badminton World Federation (BWF) aim to implement a replay system in matches.

Speaking to MediaCorp on the sidelines of the Li-Ning Singapore Open 2011, BWF deputy president Paisan Rangsikitpho said: "Sports like tennis use Hawk-Eye but it is quite expensive and badminton is much quicker and faster.

"We are experimenting maybe with replay as it is much quicker now. We might do it like tennis where each player can challenge two times per match.

"We are studying it, but the new rule will only come into effect after the 2012 Olympic Games."

====== * ====== * ====== * ====== * ======

I was hoping that each player can challenge two times per game; but it wasn't the case.

I was also hoping that this replay system could be ready before the 2012 London Olympic Games; but it wasn't the case either.

I believe that the implementation of the replay system will only come into effect after the 2012 Olympic Games.
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[chibe_K]

I see...sorry for missing the sequence of events here.

I take back point #2 then but will not change my opinion that BWF is slow in adopting changes to improve the sports. Why take them months to study??? Is it a technical challenge since our friend birdie could travel at over 250 mph, can someone share some insights?