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  1. #18
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    Originally posted by Neil Nicholls

    Viver,
    I've had people call my backhand service a sling when I've had no backswing. If you start with the shuttle very close to the racquet it is hard for the receiver to tell though. I prefer not to have the backswing because it's a clue for the receiver. If you're not careful you start doing larger backswings for flick serves than for short serves.
    Like someone already mentioned, the serve starts with the racquet moving forward. And nobody can call it fault if you did not touch the shuttle and your movement is clean and sharp. Nowadays we see players (doubles) when serving emphasize the shuttle head is the first point of contact. You can do a seach - there is a post by Steplantis?? and also Cheung where the backhand serve is described in detail.

    I mentioned my coach's experience when practicing my serves. That small detail of not making the backward swing - when playing exhibition games in another country the Chinese doubles team lost the match as their serves were often faulted by the service judge. Reason was because of the backswing during service.

    The players, when doing the serve, they positioned the shuttle, then the racquet and then the backswing and hit. The service judge interpreted that once you position the shuttle, one were ready to strike. The player when making the backswing, the official said it stopped to then make the forward motion - since the movement was not continuous it was a fault under the rules.

    After this incident and avoiding possible trouble with the officials, they decided to work on their backhand serves without the backswing.

  2. #19
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    timeless - hadn't noticed but is it a relatively small group of players thats doing this service balk? Are these some of the players who play with you in the evenings? If it's in the average club game, you can always pull a distraction and put your hand up facing them until you are totally ready to take serve. You can even interrupt them as they are going through their ritual. Take it with a grain of salt both ways... It's just recreational badminton...

    One of the ladies has a rather annoying habit to stand in a stone position holding her pose for 5 seconds upon placing the shuttle ready for service. one day mrs. badrad, little badrad and myself had a great laugh as she continued to do this serve after serve. we actually used our stopwatch function on our watches to time her, and bang on her service would be just under the 5 second mark. little badrad noticed that her lips were moving almost like she was counting down.

    I don't often play with her since she also has other rather annoying tendecies other than her service. But the times I have played against her and she pulls this slow service antic - I will ask the score just about mid-way in her delay, forcing her to restart her counter. One time I did this to her three times, before she got rather pissed off. My partner laughed her ass off... For heaven's sakes - it's just recreational badminton - not the world cup! Have fun - drive them nuts, and if they don't like you - no great loss.

  3. #20
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    Timeless,

    The servive you describe is in my mind perfectly fine. I have seen people doing it and I don't think it is a problem. It is the receiver's burden to not balk, such as when the server pulls the racquet head back to serve and pauses. Many people will balk at this, and it is perfectly legal. I think...

    Phil

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    To pull the racket back and pause is fine. To make any forward move of the racket and then stop is illegal. Everyone should have experience of playing with a service umpire, when you've lost points simply by serving illegally you start to take notice. People must stand up for the rules in the absence of umpires, many people gain unfair advantage purely through ignorance.

  5. #22
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    Originally posted by badrad
    timeless - hadn't noticed but is it a relatively small group of players thats doing this service balk? Are these some of the players who play with you in the evenings? If it's in the average club game, you can always pull a distraction and put your hand up facing them until you are totally ready to take serve. You can even interrupt them as they are going through their ritual. Take it with a grain of salt both ways... It's just recreational badminton...
    Yes, this particular service balk is only done by a handful of players. It didn't really bother me until one of them made it somewhat personal. I agree that "putting up the hand" (kinda like "talk to the hand" heheh ) is the best way to handle players who try to gain illegal service advantages. I actually used it extensively at tonights tournament when I wanted to make sure no one served while I wasn't ready. BTW, I didn't see you there rooting your daughter on!.


    One of the ladies has a rather annoying habit to stand in a stone position holding her pose for 5 seconds upon placing the shuttle ready for service. one day mrs. badrad, little badrad and myself had a great laugh as she continued to do this serve after serve. we actually used our stopwatch function on our watches to time her, and bang on her service would be just under the 5 second mark. little badrad noticed that her lips were moving almost like she was counting down.

    I don't often play with her since she also has other rather annoying tendecies other than her service. But the times I have played against her and she pulls this slow service antic - I will ask the score just about mid-way in her delay, forcing her to restart her counter. One time I did this to her three times, before she got rather pissed off. My partner laughed her ass off... For heaven's sakes - it's just recreational badminton - not the world cup! Have fun - drive them nuts, and if they don't like you - no great loss.
    Oh gosh I think I know who you're talking about. If it's the same person, then holy smokes, is her serve EVER ANNOYING! A lot of other members also eluded to the fact that her personality in general was also very annoying .

    I guess being relatively "new" to the club I expected the members, whom I thought were higher skilled than the average recreational player, would not need to stoop to using annoying tactics to gain an edge. I was very wrong . But as you said, I'm learning to deal with them by laughing at their antics and turning the tables around on them. I just find it really wild though how "out there" some people are. They do and say things that make you wonder, "What the hell were they thinking?!?!" .

  6. #23
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    Default Have I read this right?

    Am I just stupid?
    I don't think I have ever seen anyone not move their racket back then forward when serving backhand. If I were to suggest to the people at the clubs I play at that their serve is technically illegal, they would look at me as though I had gone mad!
    Can someone clarify this please?

    Thanks
    Derek.

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Sounds dodgy to me!

    Originally posted by bigredlemon
    but sometimes when I serve tip-toe, I lose my balance mid-serve and fallover the sides. (No jokes please ) I then re-position myself to where I was and re-serve. From the definition then, what I did was technically illegal as well? That is, once I start serving I must finnish even if I lose my balance?
    I think if you lost your balance and took a step while you were just poised but hadn't moved your racquet toward the shuttle yet, then it might be okay, although a judge might consider it a delay of game or something. Ultimately, I think it would greatly depend on the situation. However, if you lost your balance and stopped your serve in mid-swing then to my knowledge it would be a service fault. Similar to missing the shuttle (during service) entirely and letting it drop to the floor. I used to think that was a "let" but I believe it's actually a service fault. Again, if you lost your balance before being poised to actually begin your service swing then it could be considered no different than walking up to the T junction and tripping and falling on your face. Not a service fault but do it too often and it would be annoying heheh .

  8. #25
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    Derek, I don't think anyone has suggested you can't move the racket back then forward. What is illegal is to move the racket forward, stop and then forward again. I.e. once the server is in position the first foreward move of the racket commences the serve and it must be in a single move forwards

  9. #26
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    Default Re: Have I read this right?

    Originally posted by Derek S-H
    Am I just stupid?
    I don't think I have ever seen anyone not move their racket back then forward when serving backhand. If I were to suggest to the people at the clubs I play at that their serve is technically illegal, they would look at me as though I had gone mad!
    Can someone clarify this please?

    Thanks
    Derek.
    I think you read it right but might be missing some of the background interpretation. Here's 2 examples which will hopefully clear up what people mean when they've been referring to the legal & illegal backswing of the backhand serve.

    Legal:
    1. Place/poise your racquet in your serve "ready position". Ie. Where you want to begin your serve from, with or without a backswing.
    2. Place the shuttle somewhere infront/ahead of your racquet to be ready to be struck by your serve.
    3. Once racquet, then shuttle, are in place, you begin your service stroke by either backswing and then forward, or just forward, and contact the shuttle.

    Illegal:
    1. Place the shuttle somewhere infront/ahead of your racquet to be ready to be struck by your serve.
    2. Poise your racquet toward the shuttle in your service "ready position". Ie. Where you want to begin your serve from, with or without a backswing.
    3. Once shuttle, then racquet, are in place, you begin your service by either backswing and then forward, or just forward, and contact the shuttle.

    What makes the service illegal in the 2nd example is the order in which the service preparation is executed. Holding out the shuttle first and then moving your racquet towards it is considered your serve, whether or not you strike the shuttle. Even if you make a nice pause so that your opponents are surely not to be tricked doesn't make this service balk legal. Any initial forward motion of the racquet to the shuttle must continue to strike the shuttle. Failure to do so is a service fault. I believe the illegal backswing people are referring to is what service judges use to explain this fault to players that commit this particular service fault. This is exactly why almost everyone agrees that the service I originally described is illegal. Hope that clears it up a bit.

  10. #27
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    Thanks dlp.

    However, I draw your attention to Viver's post earlier in this thread. He/She states that the racket must have a forward movement only from the start position.
    I am just stupid! Further clarification needed please!

    Thanks
    Derek.

  11. #28
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    Derek, I see your point, that post is confusing, of course from the start position you will take the racket back and then forward, the fault can only occur if you move the racket forwards to the shuttle as you present them and then go back and forward again.

  12. #29
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    Originally posted by Derek S-H
    Thanks dlp.

    However, I draw your attention to Viver's post earlier in this thread. He/She states that the racket must have a forward movement only from the start position.
    I am just stupid! Further clarification needed please!

    Thanks
    Derek.
    Derek/dlp,
    I think Viver was referring to forward movement of racquet only at start of serve NOT start position. The first forward movement of your racquet towards the shuttle is considered to be the start of your serve.

    So, if you start with shuttle in front of your racquet and then move your racquet head back and start forward (this is the start of your serve) towards the shuttle.

  13. #30
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    Originally posted by timeless
    What pissed me off was that this particular person actually poked fun of my wife and insulted her service technique. At the time, my wife was just learning to serve so she didn't really know the particulars aside from the general form. Luckily for this person, I wasn't present when this happened...
    Best way to get back at the fellow is to play against him and crush him totally!!!

    Frankly, given all the various times and people that I played with/against, I have given on noticing illegal serves unless they are glaringly obvious. The games are all in recreational settings so it really doesn't matter unless the players themselves start to make a big deal out of it.

    There is one guy (older guy who apparently used to play on the HK National team (I heard) from eons ago) who is so full of himself that he kept on giving advice whether you want it or not. He even ended up telling some of the lady players that he played against that he "serves high to them because they are female knowing that females have weak smashes". I personally don't like playing with him but enjoy playing AGAINST him in trying to knock him on his butt.

  14. #31
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    WWC,

    I know what you mean... there are quite a few players I don't want to play with but don't mind playing against . I think badminton, being such a technical sport, with so many styles of doing the same shots, makes it just a hay-day for people to be opinionated and annoying hahaha . In all the other sports I've played, I've never met so many annoying participants, but in most sports there seems to be a limited number, and more universal, ways to do the required techniques. The only other sport I've played where I've encountered many different opinions on technique styles was in martial arts. But perhaps the universal code of ethics in martial arts saves it from developing as many annoying egos as there seem to be in badminton. Don't get me wrong though, there are a ton of ego maniacs in the martial art world as well... from my experience, there just seem to be more among the common participants in the world of badminton . Anyway, I'm straying from the original topic. I haven't had a chance to ask Darryl yet but from everyone elses perspectives it seems that the serve in question is illegal.

  15. #32
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    Originally posted by Winex West Can
    Derek/dlp,
    I think Viver was referring to forward movement of racquet only at start of serve NOT start position. The first forward movement of your racquet towards the shuttle is considered to be the start of your serve.

    So, if you start with shuttle in front of your racquet and then move your racquet head back and start forward (this is the start of your serve) towards the shuttle.
    Thanks WWC.

  16. #33
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    Originally posted by Derek S-H
    Thanks dlp.

    However, I draw your attention to Viver's post earlier in this thread. He/She states that the racket must have a forward movement only from the start position.
    I am just stupid! Further clarification needed please!

    Thanks
    Derek.
    Apologize to cause you confusion. Please note as WWC has described:
    - server places shuttle in position;
    - positions racquet moving towards the shuttle (no intention to serve from the server);
    - stop the racquet close to the shuttle;
    - backward swing and then forward to serve.

    This is a situation where the service judge can call fault.

    What I mention about the Chinese team, it was from the experience learned in an international exhibition game. The doubles team were faulted for making the backward swing when serving. According to my coach the serve should be legal.

    In order to avoid discussions with the officials (you never know how service judge interpret the rules) it was then decided that when using backhand serve, do not make the back swing. Again, they don't do the back swing just to avoid trouble with the service judge.
    Last edited by viver; 05-10-2003 at 03:42 AM.

  17. #34
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    Default Here's another scenario...

    This stuff is commonly done by the people here in my club:

    when they serve by backhand,

    1.) they bring the racquet up together with the shuttle (shuttle being held by non-racquet hand) (shuttle and racquet/stringbed is in contact)

    2.) they then bring the racquet back while still holding the shuttle stationary

    3.) then they move the racquet forward to hit the shuttle

    IS this serve LEGAL? what if the scenario is the same exept the shuttle is not in contact with the racquet/stringbed?

    NOTE: the player that performs this serve does not pause between step two and three but does it in a continuous way.

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