Joaquim Fischer's double action serve illegal?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by visor, Oct 30, 2011.

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Is Joaquim Fischer service illegal?

  1. ILLEGAL

    3 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. LEGAL

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%
  1. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    let me call CantSmashThis, our umpire-in-residence, in to make a call.
     
  2. Maklike Tier

    Maklike Tier Regular Member

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    I'm about to lose it here. This is now verging on the coveted title of the "Dumbest thread ever".
     
  3. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Come on now Maklike.. Aren't you the same guy that started the thread "Text formatting BC posts doesn't work with iPad" thread in Badmintonforum???? :cool:
     
    #43 twobeer, Dec 1, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  4. Andy05

    Andy05 Regular Member

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    It is an illegal serve to me.

    Maklike, earlier you mentioned that calling this serve illegal would disrupt the players flow. As his flow is more important than a legal serve, do you agree we should be allowed to serve overarm? I mean if it is my natural serve then I don't want my flow changed either.
     
  5. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Fellas,

    I didn't mean to start this thread to cause any trouble for JF or anyone. In fact, quite the opposite, as I really identify and admire his passion and determination on court since I play the same way too and I've previously had knee injuries and surgeries too like him.

    It was just a simple observation, but I thought since the laws of badminton were spelled out sooo many years ago even before he and his coaches were born (!), I thought they should understand this since we all do, and we are all playing and abiding by the same rules.

    Anyways, this is one of those "scratch your head moments" where you say, "huh?", as there are really no solid answers. :)
     
  6. KillerQT

    KillerQT Regular Member

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    For me it's illegal... double forward movement is a confusing service. If I'm the opponent I'll complain for sure haha!

    Where's CantSmashThis, our umpire-in-residence for clarification?
     
  7. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    "Double forward" movement or simply positioning his racket in a rushed manner? ;)

    If you were his opponent would you even notice it :p?
     
    #47 demolidor, Dec 2, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
  8. KillerQT

    KillerQT Regular Member

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    Definitely. I always look closely at the racket and shuttlecock movement.
     
  9. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Well, you didn't notice untill this thread now did you ;)? If you were in a game with him the service judge would a) disagree with you since they don't call it now, if you b) would even complain at all or see it as a double move in the actual situation

    No wonder OSIM has decided to sponsor the Super Series ^^ [​IMG] (I'll let you all think about that one)
     
  10. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    The reason why I believe it is not called, after replaying various videos over and over again, is that of what demolidor says. It is a quick positioning of his racket and then a service. After slowing it down, I can see that he has the racket below the bird, he brings it forward and up to the shuttle and then does his service. In doubles/mixed, when both players are set, some players bring their racket up and forward to the shuttle and have it in a "set" position, which is what he does. But instead of holding it there for long, he starts his serve once he brings it to the set position. That is most likely why it has not been called.

    I'm pretty sure most umpires are aware of this, and it probably has been brought up to the referee's attention before, but umpires get together often and they discuss such things and probably have made an agreement that this serve is not illegal as it seems that no one complains nor is he deceiving anyone.

    So slowly watching the video, his racket is below the shuttle, and for service, most player holds their racket near the shuttle, move it back and then forward. If you slow down the video, you can see that he brings his racket up, and then forward to the bird to a set position, and then serve. If you watch the 12 second video closely, and ignore the 2nd motion, you can see that he is just bringing the racket up to the shuttle.

    Could this service be called still? Yes, like you all pointed out, there is no clear clarification to the rules. It just states that when both players are ready, the "FIRST" forward movement is the start of the service. But that varies by person and how strictly they want to hold that rule.

    Last notes: I think the serve is pushing the rules a bit, but I have seen similar serves that we discussed not call, and there are ways to push it even farther. I think Fischer-Nielsen needs to realize that he should change his serve to more of a stop in the "set" position before serving. The rules do need to clarify more on certain things about service. For example, there is no rule about rapidly moving your racket sideways, up and down before service. There's also no rule on moving sideways AND forward at the same time, I have seen that serve and we have discussed that type of serve with Charlotte (USA referee) and she says there is nothing in the rule that states they can't do that.
     
    #50 CantSmashThis, Dec 2, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
  11. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    @ CantSmashThis

    Thank you for your reply! I'm glad we were able to get some official input on this matter. It goes back to some of the points that I and Maklike Tier made earlier on. The serve, for all intents and purposes, is not illegal, however technically it can be illegal depending on how strict the judge is on the rules. However as Maklike Tier pointed out, the rules may not be perfect and need an overhaul on the specifics of a service action so there is less room for interpretation.
     
  12. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Thanks CantSmashThis for clarifying the matter. Although it is a rather strange way to "set" a serve, kinda similar to his partner Pedersen, but different in speed.
     
  13. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    So if you ignore it is double-movement it can be deemed legal.. hmm.. :eek:

    Out of curiosity when watching the video, which forward moment do you consider to be the first in his serve after the players are ready for serve??

    9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server's racket head shall be the start of the service.
     
  14. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    If you watch in slow motion, his racket is moving forward but his wrist has minimal movement. It's his arm bringing the racket up. That's his 1st "forward motion". [From then on, he brings his racket back and uses his wrist to swing forward.] That's where I consider the start of his service.

    A lot of players bring their racket up to the shuttle and move in a forward motion. Would you fault that? You can depending how strictly you want to interpret the rules. He just does it all in a quick motion.

    If possible, can anyone slow-mo the videos? It will become more clearer once you see it in slow-mo.
     
  15. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Thanks for your view, really interesting to read your take on this.

    I think any player adressing a shuttle has to do that slow and obvious to make it clear that it he/she is adressing the shuttle not starting the serve..

    I cannot really see how such a fast movement (that may even need slomo) could be considered adressing the shuttle? What if he did this two or three times in a row before hitting the shuttle? Would you still think the serve only starts at the final forward movement?
     
    #55 twobeer, Dec 2, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
  16. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Thanks for your clarification. It vindicates my observations and conclusions, i.e. that JF was kinda "taking aim" or if you will, "lining up his swing path" prior to actually serving. Your observation that he would serve himself well to increase the "pause" at the end of his lining-up routine, is a great observation. Had he to do this, I have a feeling we wouldn't be discussing his serve at all! :D
     
  17. NanoBatien

    NanoBatien Regular Member

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    Assuming he always makes the same small double motion, then if he ever serves without that motion, say at deuce in OG final, should the umpire should fault him immeadiately?

    What if he suddenly serves with a slightly longer pause, i.e. vary the pause? That would be quite annoying when combined with the double motion, but would be technically legal. Again, what if its a once-off during OG final deuce?

    Assuming he alwas makes that motion, he should probably stop doing it since it actually makes his serve easier to receive, since there is less ambiguity about the time when he actually hits the shuttle.

    This is "special rule for individuals" is a can of worms waiting to explode, probably best if the umpiring board or whatever told him to stop doing it. Shouldnt be that hard for a professional sportsman to clean up his serve a little.
     
  18. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Seriously, "you all" :D seem to think it is a rationally thought out method of deception so he can possibly trick his opponents in the Olympic final with a secret weapon ...
    It is not a special rule for individuals, anyone (player) with a rational mind would assume the point were CantSmashThis considers it the start of the serve is the start of the serve, which is probably why no one ever complains about it either ;). Those "rolling start" serves also mentioned are more annoying imo

    (those)
    "There's also no rule on moving sideways AND forward at the same time, I have seen that serve and we have discussed that type of serve with Charlotte (USA referee) and she says there is nothing in the rule that states they can't do that. "
     
    #58 demolidor, Dec 3, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
  19. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Strictly speaking i don't think it even can be considered legal (with the current paragraphs and wordings), to adress the shuttle with a forward motion after the player are ready for service.
    If this forward movement is OK it should be put in the laws of badminton.. currently there is nothing stating that you are allowed to move the racket forward in order to adress the shuttle, once players are ready for service..
     
  20. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    That's right, since there are no rules stating that your body can't move before and during the serve. Now if they lifted or shuffled their feet before and during serve, that would be a fault because that is spelled out clearly a fault.

    If LD, who used to serve with a double action, can change his serve to within the rules, I don't see why JF can't and shouldn't, as there are NO OTHER player who serves like that, which is clearly double action... ignoring the fact whether it's deceptive or not.
     

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