As a junior as well, i have noticed that some players will try and break the rules when playing people they do not know. Like for example breaking serving rules, it hasnt happened to me as yet, but there has only been one occasion in which i have to call the referee over argument about the score. I have to say from what i have seen, the english players tend to be Slightly worse for service from what i have seen of them at Gold/Gold Star graded events. Btw swingbadabada, are you playing silver/gold/gold star ?
I rather think the call for banning was to provoke a reaction amongst posters. IMHO, I would think having an umpire or two to judge the service should be called for in a match. In fact, what would be rather good would be a tournament rule for a fixed proportion of the matches to have a service judge (up to q/finals) and that this would be randomly applied to matches without the the players or coaches knowing beforehand. Why not all the matches? Because resources are limited for lesser tournaments.
Cheung, thanks that is a good suggestion and practical too. For the sake of the game and fair play to all, random umpires/referee should go to the tournaments and judge maybe even stand away from the match and watch & judge and either stop the play if a players constantly use illegal serve or officailly warn them after the match. I say stand away from the match because a lot of players when under microscope, they behave but once no one watching, they revert back. Warn their respective representative too eg coaches, managers etc Hope this not just apply to senior tournament only but juniors too so curd the rot at the roots. I like that What do other think? can BE or badminton Power apply this?
Interesting. While coaches should point out to players if they are serving illegally they cannot be held responisble for the actions of the players. The tournament organisers however should monitor these sort of infringments. At a high junior level there is not much of a problem with fault serves as the players are more likely to be umpired or under closer observation. I have been to an u13 circuit event this year where a coach scored a final in which a player didn't make 1 legal serve and won the tournament, apparantly that coach thinks its not necessary to correct at that age! It is the players jobs to push the rules and it is the officials job to see the rules are not broken. If my player was serving well below the legal limit I would encourage him to raise the shuttle to gain as much advantage as legally posible.
What you suggest is still impractical. The ideal is to have a service judge at every match. Resources do not allow this except for final rounds. I do not believe watching the service from afar and warning the player afterwards is of any benefit. If the service judge sees an illegal serve, the server is faulted. If it happens again, the server loses another point and so on. That goes on until the match is lost. I think that is a lesson in itself. If they behave on their service, then already the service judge has served his purpose and the games is more equal. If the player has an intention to serve illegally, but then at the start, a service judge appears (from random allocation), then the psychological advantage goes to the better server. If both intended to serve illegally, then things are still even!!
Hi, I understand resources is an issue that is why at random and at afar to catch these players out. but there must be a will to do so. If the authority randomly send unmarked umpire around and spot from afar, the players or their "coach" or coach that encourage player to push/test the rules to the limit do not know who is at the scene and when. If caught, then some sort of penalties is administrated.. maybe deduct ranking points or forfeit their winning or even deduct as many points they won and so move there ranking in reverse then the player suffer or penalised and their coach/manager also receive warning from the authority..if continue to illegal test the rules and caught many times.. maybe heavier penalties.... coaches should have responsibilities too I do not agree with dlp approach to the game. that way of thinking is just pushing the responsibilty to others and winning mean everything to them..we all want to win but there are no respect or pride if won with cheating and I am sure as a coach.. you might feel the mini second of greatness but deep inside you know you have not achieve the greatness you deserve... but then cheaters will always be cheaters until they are humiliated in public then they will know that cheats do not pay... still I think the authority needs to take the 1st step on this issue and not let it get out of hand.... test to the limit..mmm..mm let us see whether we can bully the boy who stand alone in the class.. no body catch us.. we get away.. next time we ask him for money.. if no money .. kick his ass.. next time we ask him to steal from his parents so we can enjoy fish and chips...where will this lead to? if a girl who knows and saw all these happening but do not tell .. what happen if the boy hang himself because he does not want to steal and yet do not know where to turn?.. silent is not a solution I might seems heavy handed but I like to hear other proposals to resolve this or attempt to tackle this problem? let us hear it. There are lots of coaches and knowlegible people on this forum.. please contribute let argue the pros and cons so the evetual solution will hopefully be a success.
I think you need to keep this in perspective. At the moment you're raging about the unjustness of it all, and advocating draconian punishment to satiate your rage. That way madness lies. I believe coaches should not teach their players to "push the rules". Players should learn attitudes of fair play; they should not see a lack of court officials as an opportunity to cheat. Coaches should set a good example here; in my experience, most coaches do. Unfortunately a few coaches take the attitude that "being a competitor is about bending the rules". To be clear: players should be taught to serve from just below the waist (lowest rib). We want our players to develop serves that are effective and legal. In an ideal world, every tournament game would have a full set of court officials. Heck, why not have them at club nights too? And for my birthday, I would like a space shuttle, please. The most important issue is education. BE could certainly help here, by sending out a clear message to coaches and players (easily done: email all the coaches; put a short article in the coaches' and players' magazines). Specifically, they could address the self-styled "maverick" coachs' misconception that players should take advantage when the rules are not being enforced. This kind of rule-breaking really does harm the game. At its worst, it puts our young players in a situation where they must either cheat or lose. It also causes drive serves (and their returns) to dominate players' skill development. This is harmful because players then neglect the low and flick serves (and returns). There still needs to be some process for dealing with players who flout the rules. I would suggest educating players and parents about calling for the tournament referee: when is it appropriate, and how do you do it? BE could perhaps help tournament organisers by providing clear guidance about how to manage the problem of players breaking the rules (I don't know what guidance is currently provided).
And to put in a reality check : at the recent dutch national junior championships (U13-U19) there were no service judges, let alone line judges for the finals even ...
Although this is all about fair play, I think this also goes beyond badminton and extends into the attitude of the heart and moral compass of the person. If they feel they can "bend" the rules on something so simple, then I'm quite sure it is not that far down the slippery slope to compromises in other aspects of their lives, especially when they think that no one is looking or checking. Such as under reporting income to reduce the taxes they have to pay. Infidelity and adultery when they think they are "beyond" the laws that apply to other people. Copy and pasting other people's work to pass as your own work. You get the picture.
Hi Gollum Thanks great to see you contribute in this discussion I agree that I seems raging..ahead lucky I did and I got a good response from you.. and we respect your effort in improving the badminton for all Let other feed in and we all try to make some sense so that the authority can have something to guide them I am very impressed with demolidor that the dutch national junior (over such a vast age groups) did not have a single problem or players flout the rules.. well done... AND without any umpire or linesmen...could you let us know how and what you all did to achive this? we all need to learn. lets have it.. what do you all say? "I believe coaches should not teach their players to "push the rules". Players should learn attitudes of fair play; they should not see a lack of court officials as an opportunity to cheat. Coaches should set a good example here; in my experience, most coaches do. Unfortunately a few coaches take the attitude that "being a competitor is about bending the rules". I agreed "The most important issue is education. BE could certainly help here, by sending out a clear message to coaches and players (easily done: email all the coaches; put a short article in the coaches' and players' magazines). Specifically, they could address the self-styled "maverick" coachs' misconception that players should take advantage when the rules are not being enforced." - yes.. hands up "This kind of rule-breaking really does harm the game. At its worst, it puts our young players in a situation where they must either cheat or lose. It also causes drive serves (and their returns) to dominate players' skill development. " - agree too.. spoilt all the hard work and they development of rally point to attract viewer and participation. "BE could perhaps help tournament organisers by providing clear guidance about how to manage the problem of players breaking the rules (I don't know what guidance is currently provided). " yeah.. two hands up any others suggestions? any official here who can contribute too? thanks
No umpire and no service judges in tournament and no earlier warnings, all hell break loose This is natural among players including the young And with the parents and coaches around? It makes no different, let me just give you all an example: Player 1 serve illegal to player 2 and when player 2 sees the advantages, he or she will follows the same then player 2's coach tells his player that is not the service I teach you. What would player 2 says? "I will be dumb if I continue to let him get away with such easy points" Is player 2 right? And would his coach keep reminding to do a legal serve? I say 95% won't and this has happened many places not just your area So inform the organizer of such occurrences and forget about banning players or coaches
Should add this was to illustrate the difficulty in enforcing/monitoring/checking whatchamay call it, not that illegal serves were rampant And indeed, although I wasn't there from early mornings to late late in the evening I haven't noticed any complaints about high serves. Of course there were 15 courts in play so paying attention to everything from up in the stands is a big ask ... For the (semi)finals though just the 4 courts on the second day ... Of course most if not all of these players are in county selections and junior national teams so I'm sure attention to serving correctly and legally has past the revue before.
This method is weak and open to challenge. If you try to penalise a player after the game has finished, I can easily argue the observer was positioned incorrectly (because not observing from courtside without distraction. T'fore, there is reasonable doubt on the claim of foul service.
Hi Cheung, What do you propose to improve what we have proposed/suggested? Video? or the player willing to challenge an official from the authority? How did the danish did it? they must have a system that work pretty well or maybe they do not complain or raise to call for referee but there are infringement of the rules I think alot of parents(who are 1st time badminton parents) do not dare to raise an issue do you see there are such people around?
This problem is not an individual one but a sign of a more systemic and top down problem. The only solution is for the coaches to be told by a higher authority to recognize and correct it at an early stage. Otherwise if it is allowed to run rampant, English badminton will not be highly regarded by others.
The other side of drive serve... I played since I was 5 and I can beat some national players, in another word, I know badminton. Though I have not kept up w/ the rules, it has not changed with regards to serve. What I hate is players who do not spend time learning how to receive drive serve and complain that it is illegal. It is a bold statement when I see in this blog claiming that 95% of drive serve is illegal. That is what makes players do not want to utilize it. It's very useful tool once a while, but it got such reputation that most do not want to use it. Just yesterday, a guy claimed my drive serve was illegal. Well I am tall and I serve below my waist and racket heads downward, so I asked which part was illegal and the response I get, "It's too flat.". Well is not that the whole point of a drive serve, a good server can execute it very flat and right in your face... but once the serve is flatter, the default reaction is to cry fowl. Once I have even re-demonstrate my drive serve, and it was really flat and totally legal, then one guy kept quiet. But it is so very annoying to have this kind of behavior of crying fowl if it is a good flat drive serve. So my point is drive serve is legal people, if you can execute it well it will be flat. Stop giving drive serve a bad reputation.
I don't live in England now so I don't see much of this Dlp described a situation of a player being allowed a foul serve by the observer. I think that is wrong. I would definitely encourage my player to serve higher near the limits of a legal serve because that is still legal. I entirely agree with Gollum's statement. And the issue of official's observing the serve applies to all tournaments. Not just seniors but also juniors. If a player suspects an opponents serve is in error, then he has the right to ask for a service judge. I remember one time as a junior, the opponent hitting the clear but the shuttle landing marginally out. My opponent would not believe me. After the game ended, there was an impartial observer who told him the shuttle was out on those occasions Back in the old days as a junior doubles player(*cough*), I used to spend a lot of time on practising my serve against the wall and on court by myself. Although not very tall, I still managed to produce a drive serve, flick serve etc. even though I'm a typical height for an Asian player . This was (and still is) probably the strongest part of my game as my other techniques were pretty bad. So I remember in one time in a county tournament, a person came to sit on the side of the court and observe my serve. Quite unusual behaviour in those days. I believe he got a bit of whining from the other junior players. However, no problems I've always had a very good, tight, doubles serve and use drives and flicks. No problems with serve errors in HK tournaments where it's more common to have a service judge. I wish the rest of my game was at the same standard.
It's certainly true that players should accept legal drive serves as part of the game, and learn to deal with them by practising the returns instead of complaining. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that most drive serves used in club play are illegal. This does change at higher standards of club play, where drive serves tend to be legal but rare. If the serve is coming "right in your face", then it probably is breaking at least one service law (and most likely two). The serve must travel in an upwards direction, because your waist is substantially lower than the net (note also rule 9.1.8, which states that "the flight of the shuttle shall be upwards from the server's racket to pass over the net..."). Unless you are 8 feet tall (!), you probably cannot make a "right in your face" drive serve using a flat hitting action. It is possible, however, by using top spin, which can cause the shuttle to swerve downwards after passing the net. I have one student in particular who is talented at this. But top-spinning your serves is effectively banned by rule 9.1.6, which states that "the shaft of the server's racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downwards direction". For this reason, I had to advise my player that his serve, although very skilful, was probably illegal. I don't like to say "definitely illegal", because I'm not a service judge. (As a consolation, I suggested using his excellent top-spin skills for playing drives in the rally, especially as smash defence.) Under-cutting ("bottom spin") also works to an extent, and is legal; but it seems to be much less effective than top spin. At least, I've not yet seen it produce "right in your face" serves.
I frequently advise players if their serves are illegal. At the same time I make sure all players are aware of the rules and are aware of the need to stand up for themselves in respect of their opponents infringing the rules. Players will push the service rules to the limit and players will hopefully give tough (but fair) calls on lines. All players should be educated to speak to officials if they are faced with a dodgy service, it is virtually impossible for a player to call the opponents serve as a fault and claim the point. Coaches also teach players to tie their shoelaces when they lose a point (I don't do this), walk off and take a drink if they are tired (I don't do this) and even stare /shout at players when they hit them with the shuttle. I don't condone any of this , but again I don't complain about it, I teach players to deal with it, I expect organisers/referees to be aware of it and I don't allow players to use any of it as an excuse
